www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall One Man's View of Bishop John Ireland

Artcle about Bishop Ireland [thecatholicspirit.com]

I read this in the Catholic Virginian, the diocesan newspaper for Richmond diocese. Feel free to bombard them with letters. Their website is : The Catholic Virginian [catholicvirginian.org]

Bishop Ireland was a prime example of the Americanist Heresy and ethnic chauvinism in bishop appointments.

More than 100,000 Carpathian souls were lost due to his lack of Christian charity.

He was a close friend of TR, Taft and McKinley all freemasons.

He decided not to follow the previous decision of the Canadian bishops to denounce the freemasonry of the Knights of Labor.

He went to a French seminary infested with freemasons and embraced the revolution that guillotined the Vendee

The Vatican was wise to deny him a red cap.

Dare this Roman ask...?

...Oh.

"More than 100,000 Carpathian souls were lost due to his lack of Christian charity."

How were they lost? Do you mean they turned Orthodox? I hardly think this means their souls were lost. They just returned home to their birth mother after their stepmother treated them badly. The way Rome treats her Eastern stepchildren, it is strange that is doesn't happen more often.

Bishop Ireland was just a good example of what all Eastern Catholics live with, some of us just get tired of taking the abuse. What bothers me worse about the whole Ireland affair is that Rome supported him! Instead of Rome telling him to leave the Greek Catholics alone, we get Ea Semper (isn't that the one???) and thousands of Greek Catholics feel they have no choice but to become Orthodox in order to preserve their faith and traditions. Remember, at the various acts of union, these traditions were guaranteed them. Rome didn't follow through on the bargain!

Don

The Holy Father has certainly been giving his public apologies for the deeds of Roman Catholics to various other hierarchs, Orthodox, etc.

It is past due for an apology to be given inward, if not by the Holy Father then by a joint statement of the U.S. Roman bishops for the acts of Bishop Ireland which to a great extent destroyed the integrity and unity of the Greek Catholic mission in North America.

Thank God there are a few bishops in North America who are not in the same mold as Ireland, such as Archbishop Chaput who has greatly supported the Russian Catholic mission in Denver.

And Rome didn't learn her lesson from Ireland, either. Even after the disasters of Ea Semper, came the even more onerous Cum Data Fuerit of 1929. So was the fallout from Fr. Alexis Toth a "wake-up call". In some ways it does not seem so.

I agree, Don. It is way past time to "call the hand" and demand mutual respect from Rome as well as adherence according to the acts of Union.

No one can presume to call those souls who went to Orthodoxy as "lost". Personally I venerate the memory of St. Alexis Toth, because it took a great act of courage to stand up for his Orthodox tradition and lawful rights as he did.

I see Alexis Toth as an innocent victim of Bishop Ireland. Were it not for Alexis Toth, Byzantine Ruthenians would not enjoy the autonomy they enjoy. People should notice the freemason ties of Bishop Ireland. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...

By lost, I meant to the Catholic Church, not their eternal souls. Mea Culpa. My one qualm with Alexis Toth is that he asked people to deny the Immaculate Conception. Bishop Kallistos Ware has said the belief in the Immaculate Conception is not heresy in the eyes of the Orthodox Church.

The line that they returned to their mother is not correct. St.John Chrysostom, Sts Cyril and Methodius were obedient to Rome, even when Rome lacked wisdom.

They stay despite mistreatment and degrading of rights and traditions because
A) Peter is the second most frequent name in the Gospels.
B)Peter died in Rome after heading church of Antioch.
C) Belief in ONE holy CATHOLIC and apostolic church.
D) Keys were not given to St.Andrew

I have an old book, published in 1910, that has one of those old glossy photos of Archbishop Ireland. I wonder if it would be possible to scan it and post it.

I understand the damage the man did to my brethren here and elsewhere in the Byzantine communities he touched. On the other hand, I have read that he never mentioned anything about his meeting with Fr. Alexis Toth in his diaries and it is not mentioned in his biography. Do you think that he brushed the meeting off as insignificant (to him and to his vision of the Church) and promptly forgot it?

Forgive, O Lord, Lover of the souls of men, those who hate us and those who maltreat us, and cause not one of them to be lost because of us sinners.

BOB

Bishop Ireland disliked German Catholics. Married clergy Ruthenians were beyond the pale in his eyes.

The University of Minnesota put out a long biography on Ireland.

The main reason he chose not to condemn the freemason aspects of the Knights of Labor was he feared it would cause donations to dip. He wrote as much. He was the Mahoney/Weakland/Hubbard of the turn of the century. He convinced Catholics to die senselessly in World War I, which resulted in the death of Austria-Hungary, last Catholic Empire.
No Maria Theresa, No Byzantine Catholics.
Pope John Paul II just beatified Emperor Karl and Zita of Bourbon-Parma.

Zita was not beatified only her husband the Emperor/king Karl was.

An excellent thesis on the subject of Alexis Toth (and his brief relationship with John Ireland) was presented at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary in 1997 by a student named Bartholomew Wojcik. Querying the library there can get you access through interlibrary loan:

www.svots.org [svots.org]

In Christ,
Andrew

Glory to Jesus Christ !

Archbishop Ireland was indeed a strong proponent of the Americanist heresy. Moreover, his persecution of EC's set the precendent, I believe, for what would later - in the first half of the 20th century - become the "celibacy wars" that resulted in the defection of many, if not most, Eastern Catholics to what later became the OCA. Am I correct ?

Dad

ByzCathDad,

Yes, you are correct. In the Orthodox Church in America (one Orthodox jurisdiction among many in North America) probably the majority of the parishes can trace their split with Rome to the famous discussion (in Latin) between Bishop Ireland and Father Alexis Toth:

"...Have you a wife?...."

In Christ,
Andrew

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!

Hi everyone!

Can someone get some facts & figures about the numbers of churches that were originally "Greek Catholic and then joined the OCA that I can share with a friend who is a convert to the OCA.

I've tried to "explain" all this to him. He's all but called me a liar. He doesn't accept the "facts" and says that all these churches were RUSSIAN ORTHODOX (MP).

Any help would be appreciated!

thanks!!!

mark

Just look at the numerous "Lemko Rusyn" style churches the OCA has in the Anthracite region of Eastern PA. You just don't see churches built that way in Moscovy!

U-C