www.byzcath.org Forums Whose God?

Dear Friends,
I think this is a new topic, but forgive me, as it has surely been addressed here before.
It seems that the concensus here is that Muslims need to be evangelized and I heartily concur. However, I do have a question. Does Islam worship the same God, the God of Abraham and Isaac, that Christians do? What do you think?
Blessings
Michele

Some will argue yes for some very good reasons. I would argue No for the following, I hope, good reasons.

1. They do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The closest they come is to the God of Abraham and Ishmael. Might be a minor but rather significant point.

2. Their God does not recognize Christ as God hence no Incarnation. Hence:

3. Their source of authority is the word of God but the Word of God is not Jesus Christ but a book called the Qur'an.

4. They do not worship the Trinity. The paraclete that they know is not the Holy Spirit but Mohammad.

We share several beliefs and several points of ethics. However, our God does not command us to make war upon non believers but to convert them. Their God does indeed command them to convert or kill non-Muslims and many of the Muslims follow this command quite literally.

Dan L

I find this defination of Ishmael to be interesting.

Meaning #1: (Old Testament) the son of Abraham who was cast out after the birth of Isaac; considered the forebear of 12 Arabian tribes

Meaning #2: a person who is rejected (from society or home)
Synonyms: outcast, castaway, pariah
heretic, misbeliever, religious outcast � a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church

This is not a Catholic site
http://www.answers.com/topic/ishmael-outcast

I found this link, which is an Islamic version of Hagar and Ishmael. Notice the difference - they say he was a baby when Abraham took them to the wilderness. I found a link on Bible history - they left Abraham over 14 years later.
http://www.amaana.org/ISWEB/zamzam.htm
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p141.htm

This is an interesting site in regards to your question
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/bibleissues/islam/reservations.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/bibleissues/islam/source.htm

To me this persons work just confirms like Dan said, it is not the same god, as the God of Abraham. The Triune God of Abraham, brings to mind the Icon of the Trinity, the One True God, which we worship(not the icon - the Triune God ). It is an icon of God's visit to Abraham, remember Sarah laughed. This is such a cool site on this Icon. How is it someone who desires to bring such peace into our lives, could possibly bring about so much hatred in the lives of the Muslim people?
http://www.wellsprings.org.uk/rublevs_icon/rublev.htm

Pani Rose

I must disagree. One can make similar points about the Jews since they do not accept Christ. Yet (hopefully) no one would accuse them of believing in a different God.

Simply put, the Muslims do not know the God they worship. And what little they know is far from correct. The fact that they are ignorant about the definition and qualities of the God they worship does not mean that they do not worship the God of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom we know as Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

It�s a very poor example, but think of the old story about the three blind men who met an elephant. The first blind man felt his trunk and its strong movement and described a wild beast. The second blind man felt one of his huge feet and described a creature like a living tree. The third blind man felt the elephant�s ear and described a soft, skinny gentle creature. Were they not standing before the same animal? Or were they standing before three different animals? Then imagine a deaf mute with them trying to get them to assemble their experiences or them trying to explain the elephant�s roar to the deaf mute.

How does this story parallel a discussion about Muslims? They have been given incorrect information about God by a false prophet.

Does this mean they do not bow before the same God? No! It means that do not have correct information about the God they bow before. There is a huge difference.

Of course, we still need to evangelize the Muslims. All peoples need to come to faith in Jesus Christ.

John,

Perhaps you are correct. Then in fact everyone worships the one true God whether they understand Him correctly or not or whether they worship Him properly or not. Could be.

Dan L

Dan,

The Church recognizes that other religions see images of God in nature. Some wrongly worship the nature they see (or elements of it). In doing so they worship not God but merely a bit of His creation (the created rather than the Creator). Muslims see an image of God that is much clearer than, for example, a Hindu or a Buddhist. For them God is not merely nature or some sort of force. The image they see is clear enough so that they understand they worship not nature but the Creator of all things, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yet the image of God that they see is still a dark shadow when compared to the bright light of Jesus Christ, whom we know as true God. It is our job to meet them where they are at and to lead them to a full knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Admin

Do they really worship the God of "...Isaac and Jacob?" Don't mean to be picky here but they simply don't follow the God of Isaac and Jacob. At any rate, as long as they tolerate for fourteen hundred years the murder and enslavement of others who aren't Muslim I have a difficult time believing that they worship even an unclear image of the same God we worship.

Dan L

Dan,

I have to agree with the admin. What is their teaching and how it is applied toady may be two different stories. Remember, that according to the teaching of Mohamed (sic), the people of the book (Jews and Christians) should be treated as people worthy of life, but relegated to a second class position for rejecting the fullness of his teaching. Also women were given explicit rights that seemed to be ignored today.

Many of the early teachings were enforced during the first centuries. Of course, incentives were always given to converts. It was not until the Selijuk and followed by the Ottoman Turks that you see many of the abuses you witness today in the media. If you talk to any learned muslim, you will find that they share many of our basic teachings.

Remember, Mohamed (sic) was influenced by many of the different monthestic religions of his time including Nestorian Christianity. He just created through his wife, Latifah, a hybrid of beliefs so that it would be palatable for those in his region.

I hope this little history capsule helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father Anthony,

While I bow to your learning I must let you know that I teach Comparative Religions at the college level. I do know that the Dhimmi were created, at least in principle, by Muhammad himself. The existence the Dhimmi had long before the Ottoman Empire was anything but pleasent.

Rather than go on and on with detail I refer you to Bat Ye'or's, seminal study, "The Dhimmi".

Dan L

Dan,

While this may be true (I will have to add it to my reading list), I do know the basic premise of their teachings. Islam follows a montheistic belief similar to that would have been encountered on the trading routes from Jews and Nestorians. Blend that with the writings that became the Q'uran and you have Islamic belief. I know that as the admin has eluded to that the Catholic Church's understanding is more tolerant to the recognition of the God as portrayed by Islam. From what I have been able to discern from the few books and articles that the Orthodox have put out, they would tend to agree with you, in that they have created a God that is not represented in the fullness that we understand and believe. Remember as you teach (I also taught the same courses on a secondary level) very little is unique in Islam, just how it was fused into the belief of a desert people.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I am not sure that �tolerant� is the best word.

The way I see it � the authentic Catholic Church recognizes the progressive � progression � toward knowing God fully.

There is of course a difference to be made between the mental concept that a man may have of God � and God in himself.

Let us make a comparison with the progress of any individual man.

Let us imagine that � on the left � there is a man.

(a man) | | | | | | | (God)

and the man is looking through several panes of glass � at God (on the right)

Each pane of glass has an amount of soot on it. The glass pane on the left (nearest to the man ) is the dirtiest - and each after that is progressively cleaner � and the last one (nearest God) is the entirely clean.

Because the first pane he is looking through is the dirtieist � and each after that is progressively cleaner � the man has no way to tell how many panes of direty glass are between himself and God.

As the man looks through the line of glass panes � he sees God � but because each glass pane is dirty � his vision of God is not clear and obstructed by the soot on each pane.

If the first pane is removed (the dirtiest on the left) his vision of God will improve and he will see God better � but because the other pains still have soot on them � he will not see God as he is. But the man has no way of knowing that still more panes of glass need to be removed � because the man had never yet seen God in all clarity. So he is not able to make the comparison that there are more panes to be removed. His immediate impression will be that he is now seeing God in all clarity � because he does not know that yet more panes need to be removed.

As each pain is cleaned or removed � he will progressively see God more and more as God is in himself.

At each stage � the man will call the image he sees � �God� - yet because the panes are sooty � he is not really seeing God as he is � but an obstructed image in each pane of glass. Yet � will seem to the man (as each pane is removed) that God is changing. Keep in mind that he has not seen God in all clarity yet � so he thinks that each image he sees (as the panes are removed) is the real God. The man has no idea by way of experience � that more panes need to be removed before he can have that final clarity of vision.

There is only one God. It is not reality to say that there are as many Gods as there are imagoes in each pane of dirty glass.

So yes � the Muslins worship the same God that we worship � but their doctrines do not have the clarity that they may know that Jesus was more than a prophet.

While �in the body� because of the senses � we always know God by way of image. Only after death (removal of the senses) do we experience or know God directly.

Even the Christian � is limited to an image of God � in the form of the humanity of Jesus Christ � who is evidence of his father.

(the model of this comparison is a slight modification of St. John of the Cross).

So only in a metaphorical sense can we say that the man who is making spiritual progress � yet each time he has a clearer image of God he is unaware that and even clearer image is next � only in a metaphorical sense can we say that the God he worshiped at first � is a different God than he will worship at last.


Else we would have to say that each person within the church � worships a different God � according to their stage of spiritual progress and clarity of image.

So � yes � the Muslims worship the same God as we do (there is only one god) but the image that see (the concept of God they have through their doctrines) is more obstructed by the senses than the concept of God that we have through the revelation of his Son.

Since no one has seen God directly � it does little good to tell a man that the image he is seeing � is not God himself. The man will not understand � what you are talking about � and will assume that the image you are seeing (even if clearer than his) is less clear than his own.


After all that I sum up my statement by saying � I agree with the explanation given by the Administrator.

-ray

Well, I hope you are all correct. I profess I do not know. I do know that Allah was originally the name given to one of several pagan idols at Mecca. I would suppose, given the history of Religions, that many names for God had similiar backgrounds.

The "glass darkly" image comes from St. Paul which may alude to Plato. I Corinthians 13 "Now I see through a glass darkly, but then face to face."

The "many windows" idea is Neo Platonic and may have come to Christianity through Gnosticism but sounds also Alexandrian.

I like the images. They may well be applicable. I still remain a bit skeptical given the behavior of the terrorists. I suspect that they would be insulted by Ray's suggestion. On the other hand Sufis doubtless use the image themselves. But then terrorist Muslims are as willing to murder Sufis as they are to murder anyone else who doesn't agree with them.

It's a rough world out there. Be careful.

Dan L