www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros The Kliros Forum

Welcome to the Kliros Forum. This forum has been created to allow a separate meeting place for cantors and those interested in chanting the Liturgy. The intended focus of this forum is the practical aspects of being a parish cantor. It is expected that the discussions will range from the order of the Divine Services to available written music for the Divine Services.

Hieromonk Elias has agreed to be the lead moderator and I am drafting Phil Yevics and Jim from Arizona as associate moderators (since they both have spoken of the need for this forum). I originally did not think that there would be enough activity to justify a dedicated forum but Phil�s post earlier today indicated that even if the discussions were few and occasional it would be helpful to have them easily accessible in a dedicated forum.

We can consider making this a private forum. The difficulty with that is that it would be impossible to determine who is a parish cantor and who is not. For now I will recommend those using aliases to update their profile to indicate their home town (or the town their parish is located in) and to provide their real name and parish with the signature of at least the first post of each thread (i.e., �Jim, Cantor at St. Thomas the Apostle, Gilbert, AZ).

I ask those who do not serve their parishes as cantors to refrain from posting here. I ask the moderators to be ruthless in deleting such posts as well as transferring threads not having to do with chanting the Divine Services to a more appropriate forum.

Admin

I thank the Administrator for setting up the kliros forum, and pray that this gathering place may be helpful to cantors!

With respect to our esteemed administrator, I am sure that 'ruthless' moderating will not be needed.



the unworthy,

Elias

Administrator,

What is the definition of "official cantor" as it pertains to "The Kliros Forum". In the Ruthenian
Byzantine Catholic Metropolia, most "volunteer cantors" do not recieve any monetary compensation for their services rendered. There are many "congregational cantors", laity in the pews who have to fill in as a cantor for the day when no official cantor is present. Then there are the
parishes that implement "cantoring by committee". Would these "congregational cantors" and "committee cantors" be welcome to participate on "The Kliros Forum"?

Ungcsertezs

Ung, one place to draw the line is at accountability.

The congregational cantor you mention usually has no continuous responsibility for cantoring service after service. They are more a part of the congregation than they are cantors. One might even call them parishioners who sing, instead.

The group of cantors you mention are more regularly cantoring at the kliros than the congregational ones.

A lead cantor for the kliros works regularly with the priest and/or deacon, reviews the typikon, gets permission to introduce certain music where applicable, and may even arrange music for use if needed. The congregational cantor and those in the group usually aren't involved in the ongoing decision-making or definition of what is required for each service.

These distinctions may appear to be subtle, but they are not really. Those that are responsible for introducing materials to the congregation usually have more accountability. Their work with the priest can help determine whether certain music or language is used, or isn't, long term.

If there are disagreements within a parish with regard to decision-making for cantoring, the ultimate decision is apt to be made by the parish priest, with regard to trying to get everyone to work well together while remaining faithful to the Church.

So, for me, if they aren't at the kliros, they are not really cantors. They are parishioners who sing and give moral support to the cantors at the kliros, instead.

Can someone who is about to become an ex-cantor still hang out around here? (once a cantor...)

I also thank John not only specifically for this forum but all of his tireless liturgical musical efforts over the years. Mnohaja Lita.

Diaks Rule!!!

I just learned about this forum from a post in the Typikon email list. I applaud all efforts at facilitating communication between cantors. I look forward to many useful discussions and suggestions. Thanks to those who took the initiative.

Mike
a cantor at Annunciation in Chicago

You, an ex-cantor? Only if you decide to never sing again. There is no escaping the kliros! I know an Archimandrite who enjoys singing at the kliros when there are other clergy to serve things like Vespers. To top that, we once chanted Jerusalem Matins with Kyr Robert (Moskal) at the kliros! I'm glad I got that one down on tape.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

You're right, Andrij. It's in the blood (or the throat as the case may be...)

Many times I have seen Archpriest Roman Galadza wander back down to the analogion to sing a few lines and then go back up to the Altar...

Reminds me of a Romanian Orthodox parish I sometimes visit, usually for Vespers - the pastor can often be found walking back and forth between the Altar and the kliros. I was dragged to the kliros on my first visit (I was spotted in the congregation by a friend) and I'm now expected to be there every time I visit. One of these days I must learn how to pronounce Romanian - after a few dozen services, holding the ison can get a bit boring.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Diak (and everyone), I hope that even though someone is less active at the kliros than they used to be, that they will contribute here by way of offering referrals to resources for cantors' use when the question comes up. I can safely say from experience that new cantors often find themselves without any local resources to draw on for particular services, so they have to make their own, surf for them, or get them from another parish (assuming they have them).

What I seek to avoid is the idea that anyone who sings is a cantor. That simply does not work. As one cantor from Ohio says, "All cantors are singers, but not all singers are cantors."

Quite true, Jim.

Many who sing well feel uncomfortable about being the leader/(cantor) in a congregational setting. There is a discipline to leading a congregation in worship that is different from singing in a choir or schola. I noticed this recently when having to switch gears in singing with the choir then leading for the troparia and switching back to following the choir director.

Steve

Diak,

In an earlier post you wrote:
"Many times I have seen Archpriest Roman Galadza wander back down to the analogion to sing a few lines and then go back up to the Altar..."

Was this during a Divine Liturgy or perhaps during Vespers?

Steve - he does that mainly at Vespers and Matins, but I have seen him also do that at DL when another priest was main celebrant.

Diak, I hope that the Father you mentioned was not seeking to correct problems at the kliros during a service. I saw that once. Unfortunately, the priest involved believed in fixing mistakes when they happen, and was soon making trips out to the kliros during most services, sometimes more than once. Sorta disrupts personal piety when that happens.

Jim - it was absolutely not as a punitive measure. As Andrij and I were discussing, once a diak, always a diak - lending help on one of the harmony lines that may not be as strong as the others.

Redolent of the hosts in Revelation always coming and going, fluttering about, I not only don't mind clergy and servers coming and going during services, I like it very much. Our Byzantine tradition is full of liturgical motion, explicit and implicit.

Regarding "personal piety" I think perhaps too often we maintain Western subjective, static notions of that concept. The Ethiopians make even the examples we are talking about pale in comparison with all of the extra moving about, motion, processions, coming and goings, wanderings, etc. that happen in every service.

I'm glad he wasn't following an agenda.

As to personal piety (or pious practices), there are very few blanket answers, of course.