www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Singing the Liturgy

Pamjati!

Nothing whatever against musical balance (or against Church-Slavonic).

Musical balance could very well mean accepting a choral celebration of the Divine Liturgy on occasion.

Have you considered joining the choir? You might learn some nice music!

Fr. Serge

I suppose someone should point out that the sort of choir singing that we are used to, obviously Western in origin, entered Orthodox practice in the 16th century in Galicia, Bielarus', and neighboring regions. It antedated the Unia, and spread among the Orthodox, against some resistance, in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth; it was taken by the Greek Catholics as part of the tradition they inherited, although not a tradition of any antiquity. The Russian church adopted it only after Alexei Mikhailovich took eastern Ukraine and Kiev from the Poles.

But it should also be noted that in Russia the choir loft became the only locus of real singing; the kliros was reduced to a place for *reading*, and the d'iak became a d'iachok. This did not happen in the western regions, except where the indigenous tradition was suppressed in favor of Russian practice. The older tradition was maintained in Russia by the Old Believers, of course; and in the state church it was better preserved in monasteries and to some extent in cathedrals; but in the parishes the choir loft was supreme and the kliros was reduced to a pale reflection of its former glory. Congregational singing is claimed by some as a product of the Unia, but Herbinius certainly heard it in Orthodox Kiev. In North America, the tradition, caught between Latin and Russian millstones, has been sadly ground to bits.

If you are interested in preserving and renewing the traditional church singing, then you must realize that any claims to do this without Vespers and Mattins are fraudulent. You cannot decouple the chant from the services. The current neglect of Vespers & Mattins is makes a mockery of professed loyalty to the prostopinije tradition. If you doubt this, look at the Popovich Velikii Sbornik; in the middle of the 19th century, Rusyn parish practice was Vespers Saturday evening and Mattins & Liturgy Sunday morning. This is where you encounter Znamenny melodies; this is where you encounter Bulgarian melodies. Yet both Orthodox and Greek Catholic Rusyns have allowed Vespers and Mattins to decay, while the services are well maintained by the Russians, who however have only a dumbed-down, impoverished musical octoechos with which to sing them.

It is a disgrace.

Stephen

If you are interested in preserving and renewing the traditional church singing, then you must realize that any claims to do this without Vespers and Mattins are fraudulent. You cannot decouple the chant from the services. The current neglect of Vespers & Mattins is makes a mockery of professed loyalty to the prostopinije tradition.

Not only does it limit the use of prostopinije, it also limits the congregation's understanding of what each day of the Menaion is all about. A full Vespers service (and Matins for that matter) includes many stichera which tell details of the feast itself, details that help educate the laity, that are not contained within the Epistle or Gospel reading at Liturgy.

MCI has really thorough Vespers and Matins books for congregations that are interested in having congregational unison singing of these services, as opposed to choir settings.

(In addition, changeable propers for Vespers are available from MCI via email for reproduction locally. All of these are arranged in prostopinije tones, and Vespers is usually available in podoben as well as samohlasen settings.)

The biggest hurdle in the long run for me as a cantor is not implementation of these services, however. There is still the erroneous thinking, both Orthodox and Catholic, that if it isn't Liturgy, it isn't worth going to regularly. And the East has a bigger problem, that of missing out on the full lectionary by omitting Vespers and Matins. The readings for Sunday Liturgy are mostly the same year after year, excepting certain feasts when they happen to fall on Sunday, but if you attend Vespers and Matins you can receive a much greater fullness of the Word, especially since our lectionary does not change annually.

Jim,
Please accept my complete agreement (well, almost complete - I prefer the form "Orthros" to "Matins", but my reasons have nothing to do with music!).

I've never recovered from a priest's funeral many years ago. The service-book calls for the chanting of the Canon "The Waves of the Sea . . .", which is very beautiful. I managed to chant the first Heirmos, whereupon the presiding Bishop toild me to stop, because the people didn't know this Canon. Well of course they didn't know it - if it's never used, how could the people be expected to know it? But if we read the supporters of prostopinije, they are apt to appeal to the Canon melodies in particular to substantiate the claim that prostopinije represents an old variant tradition of znammeny chant. True, so far as it goes - but if no one sings those Canons, it doesn't go very far.

Again, thank you for your well-chosen and accurate words.

Fr. Serge

Jim, excellent points, and this one in particular:

Indeed Vespers and Matins are traditional and essential part of our liturgical cycle, and in fact in terms of content far outweigh the remainder combined (including the Divine Liturgy) in their catechetical, doxological and hagiographical content. You are right on the money about the observation of reductionist tendancies to make DL the only "significant" liturgical celebration, and one that any of us who have been at this for a while have a great deal of direct experience with.
FDD

The problem is that whenever all the people can sing together the responses and hymns to the liturgy, a choir will sing for them and render them mute. Not once here or there, but all the time. When a temple or cathedral is packed with standing room only (at ordinations or episcopal consecrations) and everyone there knows how to sing robustly and harmoniously, Plainchant will be given very little room, if at all.

It is wonderful to hear the entire congregation sing. It is a strange thing to see many participants(?) standing as passive spectators.

It is strange to hear everyone sing Plainchant out loud and beautifully and then die a quick death when a few old ladies and men begin to sing opera-like renditions. Yawn.

Why can't the "choir" sing Plainchant and in harmony? Why opera? Have you ever heard a packed temple reverberating with Plainchant melody? It is more chilling than a good rendition of Plucharchowkowskiovichenky.

Choirs are like clergy who wish to keep the liturgy for themselves. What happened to "the work of the people?" Again, us little people get the shaft even at our own worship service by elite liturgists. It gives them impression that "real" participation in liturgy is a gnostic or cliquish thing, not meant for the rank and file. Why not stay home and listen to a CD of the Divine Liturgy or maybe watch "Mass" on EWTN? The people's participation, even at important services, means diddly squat. This is unfortunate.

Who, may I ask, is responsible for singing, "Axios!" ???? Even here, the people's voice is rendered mute. T'is sad.

Personally, I sang in a parish "choir" for seven years. Never learned a darn thing about our Plainchant for cantoring Divine Liturgy, vespers, Matins, funerals, weddings, etc. "Low Mass" was for cantorheads like me. But I did build up a collection of banker boxes full of music so I can lead the congregation in a fuller participation of their role as 'active' worshipers. Thank God for the copy machine and hymn books marked "for private use only".

Cantor Joe Thur

Thank you. My sentiments excatly!

Cathy

Someone has had a bad but not necessarily typical experience. It is by no means impossible to arrange things so that the congregation and the choir support one another.

I also - LONG ago - grew weary of cantors telling me "oh, the people can't sing that - they don't know it!" This, of course, turns out to mean that the cantor doesn't know it and doesn't aim to learn.

Better yet, I remember this gem, from back in 1968, heard from a gentleman who had been reader and music director in a certain parish (of Carpathian derivation - the parish, that is) since the Russian Revolution: "You know, I was trained in Moscow, and, therefore, I know very little of the traditional Christmas songs." He said this with a sober face and voice, and no trace of a smile. He had been in that parish for half a century and never bothered to learn what the people felt was the most important musical expression of the Christmas - Theophany cycle.

I believe the term for this sort of mind-set is "invincible ignorance".

Fr. Serge

Anybody who was at Otpust at Uniontown and heard the Slavonic Liturgy knows our people still love Slavonic. The liturgy seems to be more electrified and uplifting sung in Slavonic. Too bad it's only used occasionally. I realize we need English, but to me there's no reason to not have a Slavonic liturgy at least occasionally in each parish. JMHO

With regard to the anti-Archieparchial Choir comments, I must submit my two cents and I apologize in advance if I am offending anyone. Individuals posting without sufficient knowledge or information, has been the downfall of more than a few important topics of conversation on the Forum.

As Fr. Serge has stated, choir music has a steeped history in Ruthenian tradition. I can state without hesitation that the choir is very aware of the balance it must maintain between Plainchant and �choir� renditions when it is requested to serve at any liturgy in order that there can be congregational participation. Those individuals criticizing the choice of selections which the choir uses should be aware that in some instances the type of liturgy dictates certain responses (as in the case of �Axios� and others). Also and perhaps most importantly, the list and order of music is reviewed and approved by either the archbishop, his representative or the celebrant prior to rehearsals beginning for any celebration in which the choir attends and is asked to lead the responses.

The earlier poster mentioned an Eparchial Choir; it was not clear to me which choir was referred to, in any case.

I wasn't the poster and I don't know, but I can offer the information that at various times different eparchies have organized Eparchial Choirs, youth choirs, women's choruses, men's choruses, and you-name-it.

Fr. Serge

Glory to Jesus Christ!

May we all stop for a moment?

First of all, Zeeker, the comments were not about the Archeparchial Choir; they were about the Eparchial Choir in the Eparchy of Parma.

Second of all, this thread did NOT begin as a commentary on choral vs. congregational singing. Cathy's comments sort of derailed it. Now, however, that this has become a major controversy (not, it might be noted, a new one in the Pittsburgh Metropolitan Province), it is important to state some of the issues it presents:

(1) In the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Province, it is understood by most clergy and musicians that the faithful are the primary "choir" in the liturgical services of the Church.

(2) The volunteer choir is designed (in our churches---not talking about anyone else's) first and foremost to act as support of the congregation's singing, and only then to do attendant music.

(3) In certain circumstances, it is a good and joyful thing that the choir sing portions of the divine services in settings that do not admit the congregation's participation, in order to enhance the solemnity of the occasion. When this is done, it is essential that the music be appropriate to its liturgical function. In a time of change, when (for example) the Anaphora is being taken aloud by the bishop or priest, it is not appropriate to have a choral "Holy" or "We praise you" which brings the recitation of the Anaphora to a halt.

Pace Fr. Serge. You are not in our jurisdiction, and you really don't have a right to be telling our priests or choir directors or cantors what is "what." And we don't have the right to dictate that to another sui juris Church, either, so these comments are intended only for in-house use.

And having said that to Fr. Serge, I have to agree with him that the Cathedral Choir of Uzhgorod is an outstanding ensemble which sings very prayerfully indeed, as well as tunefully. It was a privilege to be with them on Jun. 28 for the Feast of the Translation of the Relics of Bl. Theodore. Even outside, they did a magnificent job in leading the Divine Liturgy. What was sad was that they weren't there to take part in Matins, which was led by seminarian cantors---and sung fervently by all the faithful in attendance (singing things like the Irmosi which were mentioned someplace above <G>).

Choirs have a place in our church. That having been said, it is better for us if they don't crowd out the singing of the assembly. We can definitely have BOTH/AND, rather than either/or.

And, while we're at it: charity is always a good idea.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Michael:
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory Forever!

You've motivated me to break my silent, occasional reading of "The Revised Liturgy" discussion on here with your latest post.

Don't you believe that your comments to Father Serge above border upon the "uncharitable?"

Father Serge is a well-respected, accomplished Liturgiologist of the Eastern Church and should certainly welcome to offer his opinions.

In other words, Father Serge has just as much of "a right to be telling our priests or choir directors or cantors what is 'what.'" as anyone else who reads or posts on this Forum (including you).

During the early stages of the discussions to revise the Divine Liturgy and music for our Metropolia, one can only assume that the only opinions heard and considered were those of the members of the IELC/IEMC.

As information has been shared about these proposals with a larger audience of Clergy, Cantors, and Faithful (via various channels), one should expect that different opinions will be voiced. Some will be supportive, others will be constructive, but all should be chartitable - on this point, I agree with you.

While it is true that some opinions may be considered "more informed" than others in such discussions, everyone should still be welcome to share their personal perspectives.

~ Cantor JKF