www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Will the Revisionists Trash Church Slavonic?

It is true that Church-Slavonic was never a vernacular language, although it came closer in some places than in others (which may be why in German Church-Slavonic is called "Old Bulgarian). Until the Nikonian disaster, Church-Slavonic was gradually adapting itself to be more understandable in its specific cultural settings - thus one can distinguish a Muscovite recension (there's that word again!) of Church-Slavonic, a Kyivan recension of Church-Slavonic, a Serbian recension of Church-Slavonic and so on. Church-Slavonic was not a vernacular language, but it was not a dead language either.

What seems interesting in the context of the present discussion, though, is the perception - which is certainly justified to some significant degree - that the faithful of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia have been deprived of Church-Slavonic against their will. That is beyond question what happened in Hungary and later in Slovakia, so such a claim is at least credible in the USA.

One of the leading proponents of the revisionist Divine Liturgy has repeatedly attempted to dismiss any suggestion that before changing the Ruthenian Recension as published in the nineteen-forties we all need to experience that Ruthenian Recension in its unabridged, unrevised form as meaning that Church-Slavonic should be re-imposed, even by force. The argument is a non sequitur , just as people who prefer Greek usage are not required to demand that everyone should serve exclusively in Greek.

But this is a non sequitur that offers food for thought. It would be helpful to attempt to ascertain to what degree the imposition of English was welcomed, and to what degree the retention of Church-Slavonic was willfully prevented.

That's my only immediate comment, but I may return to this discussion - languages are an essential component of our cultural inheritance, and interference with languages, particularly by coercion, can have drastic results.

Father Serge

Allright...I'm a Noob to the board, but a longtime Byzantine.

While the church Slavonic is the traditional language used in our masses, how does one expect to attract new members, especially those outside slavic ethnicity? As I understand it, the Liturgy is supposed to be in the language of the people. Most in my parish don't even understand Slavonic anymore, and although I love to sing it myself, I understand why an outsider would not be attracted to it.

It's not a matter of being attracted to it. It's part of our tradition. Newcomers should accept what we have to offer,(Slavonic included). We shouldn't trash our history to please the few who may join us. After all, when you're the new kid on the block you observe things.

P.S. It's Divine Liturgy , not mass

I thought one of the longstanding traditions of the Byzantines was to use the vernacular. Is it not?

-just Wondering

Wow...nice welcome. I do believe I did use the word, Liturgy, did I not? And yes, VERNACULAR is the tradition.

I've been lurking on these boards for quite some time--mostly because it took awhile before a hotmail accout was made a "valid" account according to the registration policies. Heck, it's the only email acct. I use.

A little history of myself; I was born to a Slovak mother, raised in the Byzantine tradition, and my father was Irish Catholic (used to not be a church-goer). I was baptized in a Byz. church in Ct. I was put into parochial school in a Roman Catholic Church from grades 1-4. I received Communion and Confession during these times. I started going back to catechism at my Byzantine church in Grade 5, and discovered that I preferred the Byzantine Rite more than the Latin. I am now 30 years old, and was just told by my priest that I am indeed not a Byzantine (by tradition anyhow), but am Roman Catholic. Ooops! I am getting married next year, after which, I hope to officially change my Rite to Byzantine Catholic.

Anywhoo, after reading so many topics through these forums, I think people have to accept that the Byzantine Catholic Church is dying a slow death. I am often the youngest attendant at DIVINE LITURGY, which makes me feel a bit strange.

In the United States we are really no longer seperated by ethnic ties. Italians have married Irish, Polish to German, etc, etc. We are already talking about 3rd and 4th generation who do not speak their grandmothers' native tongue, much less Slavonic.

I know that my church is guilty of not "reaching out" enough to other cultures. It is easier to join a Roman Church--much more acceptance there.

I'm not saying that you can't have a special Liturgy once in a while in Slavonic (which I haven't seen in years, and quite frankly, I miss it), but you're not helping the church if you retain the old tradition of using Slavonic in "everyday" Liturgy. The church must "Evolve or Die". I don't like it either. I'm old enough to remember about 6 priests who have served in our church. On Easter Sunday, the Gospel would be read a paragraph at a time, once in English, once in Slavonic. Beautiful. Sadly, I have not seen this in many years.

Quote from stormshadow

And "few" is what there'll be if this is how they're welcomed.

(Sorry - back to the cute puppies and kittens [cuteoverload.com] ! )

I don't know if people understand my point. None of our churches (that I know of) have an all Slavonic Liturgy on a regular basis. I don't think having one quarter or less Slavonic in a Liturgy is going to send a possible newcomer screaming for the door. I don't understand the language myself, except for a few phrases. Yet, I enjoy hearing it and know where I'm at in the Liturgy. If you come into the Byzantine tradition clueless of it's customs, why would hearing some Slavonic intimidate anybody? They might get used to it and actually enjoy it.

My last post wasn't meant to offend anyone, I'm just a little blunt sometimes. Sorry..

Stormshadow

I feel I need to apologise - but I responded to your original post before you edited it.

However - you did use the term.

I understand what you mean about the use of language - I'm a Ukrainian Greek Catholic - and the only Ukrainian I know is liturgical - I can manage the responses and the Lord's Prayer - and that's about it


However I do not think we are dying

Anhelyna

Sorry, but gotta disagree with you there Stormshadow. It has been my experience that mantaining ALL the traditions, Slavonic included, is what has actually drawing people to the Church. 20 years ago, we worshipped in a 2 car garage. We now have 4 full parishes, with talk of 2 more on the way. And we use probably 60/40 Slavonic on Sundays, and almost exclusively Slavonic on weekdays. I had 36 students in the Slavonic class that I taught.
English has it's place, as does Slavonic, Greek, and the other languages. The trick is to balance it according to the needs of the parish. People are not as dumb as they are made out to be. Remember please that Slavonic and Koine Greek are NOT the vernacular in Eastern Europe or Greece. They are liturgical languages. There is no liturgical English, the closest being what is commonly referred to as King James English. I believe it is the responsibility of the Church to bring the populace up to the Divine, rather than bring the Divine down to the populace.
Let me give you an example from another Orthodox Church. For years, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in America, was considered to be amongst the more liberal jurisdictions in it's outlook. Conversions were few, and it maintained it's populace base due to the strong ethnocentric tendencies of the Greek people. (I know, Father Anthony and Alice are chuckling over that understatement!)
Then a few years ago, Geronda Ephraim came from Athos, and started a series of STRICT Athonite monaasteries in the US. The last thing Americans need, according to the renovitionists. More ethnic claptrap. Well guess what? Geronda Ephraims monasteries are booming! I lost track of how many there are now. Americans from all walks of life are discovering Athonite Orthodoxy in it's fullness.
It seems to me that the BC Church has kept on giving in to the renovitionists, Latinizers and modernists over the years, resulting in chasing many traditionalist members away, and failing to attract new members, while some of the Orthodox Churches are becoming MORE traditional in their outlook. So the score card reads:

The Renovationists -
The Traditionalists +

We're building new churches, and you are selling yours. Who is succesful, and who is not?

As a side note, I know that some will say that I am gloating. I am not. I feel sorry that the Byzantine Catholic Church is being rent asunder by those who would abandon Her traditions. I welcomed the signs that I saw of Her starting to reclaim her past. As Deacon Robert can easily verify, look what happened to the OCA Churches in the Scranton area when the OCA bishops changed the Calendar. My prayer is that the BC Church learns from the errors that we made, and profits by them.

Alexandr

Wish I had said that! Brilliant. All this talk about the vernacular has me seething. It seems to mean to me to make the service as similar as possible, to bring it down the the level of the average person, like TV programmes that are geared to avail to adult 10 years old. The lowest common demoninator does not attract people.
I agree with all Alexandr has said. People are looking to the Holy Spirit to lift them up to God. The Holy Spirit speaks through the theology of beauty (Pseudo-Dionysius) and through all the senses. We should be searching for more and to learn deeper and deeper thruths of God. Theosis is a long-long journey.
My parish is very traditional with all the liturgical services in Ukrainian and parish activities. People do come to the services, participate in the services and are richly blessed by their participation. yes, and we have have an adult discussion group during the week in addition to the choir practices, Ukrainian school, Ukrainian dancing, and Sunday School.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Sorry, but gotta disagree with you there Stormshadow. It has been my experience that mantaining ALL the traditions, Slavonic included, is what has actually drawing people to the Church. 20 years ago, we worshipped in a 2 car garage. We now have 4 full parishes, with talk of 2 more on the way. And we use probably 60/40 Slavonic on Sundays, and almost exclusively Slavonic on weekdays. I had 36 students in the Slavonic class that I taught.
English has it's place, as does Slavonic, Greek, and the other languages. The trick is to balance it according to the needs of the parish. People are not as dumb as they are made out to be. Remember please that Slavonic and Koine Greek are NOT the vernacular in Eastern Europe or Greece. They are liturgical languages. There is no liturgical English, the closest being what is commonly referred to as King James English. I believe it is the responsibility of the Church to bring the populace up to the Divine, rather than bring the Divine down to the populace.
Let me give you an example from another Orthodox Church. For years, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in America, was considered to be amongst the more liberal jurisdictions in it's outlook. Conversions were few, and it maintained it's populace base due to the strong ethnocentric tendencies of the Greek people. (I know, Father Anthony and Alice are chuckling over that understatement!)
Then a few years ago, Geronda Ephraim came from Athos, and started a series of STRICT Athonite monaasteries in the US. The last thing Americans need, according to the renovitionists. More ethnic claptrap. Well guess what? Geronda Ephraims monasteries are booming! I lost track of how many there are now. Americans from all walks of life are discovering Athonite Orthodoxy in it's fullness.
It seems to me that the BC Church has kept on giving in to the renovitionists, Latinizers and modernists over the years, resulting in chasing many traditionalist members away, and failing to attract new members, while some of the Orthodox Churches are becoming MORE traditional in their outlook. So the score card reads:

The Renovationists -
The Traditionalists +

We're building new churches, and you are selling yours. Who is succesful, and who is not?

As a side note, I know that some will say that I am gloating. I am not. I feel sorry that the Byzantine Catholic Church is being rent asunder by those who would abandon Her traditions. I welcomed the signs that I saw of Her starting to reclaim her past. As Deacon Robert can easily verify, look what happened to the OCA Churches in the Scranton area when the OCA bishops changed the Calendar. My prayer is that the BC Church learns from the errors that we made, and profits by them.

Alexandr [/QB][/QUOTE]

Dear Alexandr:

I'm a fairly recent convert to Eastern Christianity. I started attending an OCA mission in January or February of 2005. The reason why I chose this particular mission is that they say the Divine Liturgy is English. I was chrismated there on Pentecost of 2005. I have recently been received in the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh. I decided to do this because I became engaged to a lady who is a cradle Roman Catholic and she proposed that if I were willing to become Catholic, she would agree that we would worship together at an Eastern Catholic Church and that we will raise our children as Eastern Catholics. We were married three weeks ago. We would not attend a Church where the liturgies are primarily in a language other than English. I agree with you when you say "People are not as dumb as they are made out to be." My wife and I are certainly not dumb. Neither are we opposed to the use of some Church Slavonic. Some singing is done in Church Slavonic at our parish and our new priest is now incorporating the Slavonic "Slavu Isusu Christu," which I welcome, as I think most of the other parishioners do. However, if the liturgy were to be prayed in Church Slavonic, my wife and I would feel completely lost. I don't doubt that you're correct in saying that there are instances in which people are being drawn in because of the use of Church Slavonic. However, I think that needs to be balanced against the fact that there are also those who would be driven away by the use of a language for which they have no understanding. And I would add that I'm not a "renovationist," "latinizer," or "modernist." I'm one of quite a few former Protestants who felt spiritually impoverished in Protestantism, who saw great spiritual riches in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. That richness is not lost if the liturgy is prayed in English!
In peace,
Ryan

Dear Ryan,
First, my congratulations and a warm welcome - and best wishes for you and your wife!

On the language issue, it is possible (not certain, and this is not a promise, but possible) that as time goes by, you may discover that the older languages (such as Greek and Church-Slavonic) have something to offer. For now, my only suggestion is to keep an open mind on the subject,

with every blessing,

Father Serge

I certainly don't see any Orthodox churches being built in my area. Where is this?

You may be addressing this question to Alexandr, but I can add that in Southern Ontario, new Orthodox churches are always opening in the last 10 years in addition to a monastery or two.
Why don't you just check the parish listings of the various Orthodox jurisdictions for the USA to see where all the churches/parishes and monasteries are.