www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Parish "Closing" vs. Mission, Vision, Planning and "old people"

Fr. Tom, I can appreciate what you are saying through this thread and all of yours that I have read for that matter. However, what good does any of this do when the people have been attempting to enter into a dialogue with Bishop Pataki for years and were unresponded to. Dialogue is a two way street. And until we can get Holy Shepherds, we are getting nowhere. The vision as you lay it out is what the people in Holy Trinity in CT and I'm sure St. Jude's in NJ, and Holy Apostles in FL as well along with the other 4 parishes that were closed. And the Long Island parishes and others. Creating a few mega churches is not going to work. My experience is the larger the church the less their spirituality. It fosters a come, slip in, get our obligation done, mentality. These smaller parishes that appear to be on the "chopping block" are the ones, at least in my experiences throughout Passaic and Parma) that are more spiritually and family oriented. Yes, Holy Tinity in Bridgeport, CT was much smaller (probably about 1/3rd the size) of St. John's in Trumbull. But, I can say this since I had been told this by parishioners at St. John's myself, their was always a tension between the two parishes due to the fact that, St. John's was bigger, Slavic which has always been preferred, and jealous. Yes, I have had parishioners from St. John's tell me there was jealousy because of the smaller close knit community at Holy Trinity. I digress... Dialogue with the Bishop is a two way street. Many attempts were made for dialogue but simply ignored.

Just read where a parish was "suppressed".
What is that?

Suppressed?

Job and Basil,

I fear that anything I write will be construed in your time of grave distress as callous. But if no one writes in empathy and instruction that also might be taken as insensitive.

I hope you will believe that I am praying for you and that I care very much for your distress and do empathize with your long suffering. I also understand the problems you have with your bishop, but I don't know what to do in the short term about them. I also know that a time of grieving is quite appropriate.

You report that you are trying to remain together as a community and meet at a common location. This is good. Perhaps your efforts in the long run will show the rest of us a way to build a strong growing congregation even out of disaster. Perhaps there are further actions that might be taken against the bishop. But in the long run the more productive avenue would be to start a new mission and link with whatever Catholic or Orthodox Church God leads you toward.

Turn this present disaster into something very very positive for the glory of God and the good of the people.

On the Evangelism forum we wish to look beyond the present disaster that is the BC Church in the 21st century to God's glorious future. You could be a shining light for the rest of us.

I know it's easy for me to say, but God's saints are always those who face disaster and turn that into something glorious.

As some friends and I say, "If you don't bleed you don't lead." Perhaps God is calling you folks to lead.

Dan L

I agree with your statement "if you don't bleed you don't lead" 100%. The issue is we (at least in Bridgeport) are leading to a place where we have been welcomed. The Orthodox Church. If the design is to lead the strong faithful to Orthodoxy, it didn't need this, honesty and intregity from the heirarchy would have done that. To me as a member of the Holy Trinity community, I view it as God leading us back to the Church that our former administrator Orestes Chornak helped create (ACROD). It is God sending the spirit of Bishop Orestes to reclaim the rest of his flock?

Will you secretly love the Bishop of Rome even when you leave? I pray so.

Dan L

I wish I could say yes. However, the numerous appeals that went ignored (through proper channels, I am told, by going to the Papal Nuncio in Washington, DC at least 25 times in 2 years)showed that Rome had no concern for a small Eastern Catholic Church. I guess you need to be a "megachurch" for loving care to be shown.

Dear Job,

I am truly sorry for the loss of your parish. But I must say that your posts really bother me. Let me explain: you intimate that you will be leaving the Catholic church for the Orthodox church because of this event. This means that you will be changing what you believe because of what happened to the parish.

But how could this be? What impact does the closing of a parish, even as clumsily as this one appears to be carried out, have on the content of one's faith? If you are a Catholic, you believe what Catholics believe, which includes (in distinction to the Orthodox) a belief in papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction. How does the mishandling of a parish closing impact either of these beliefs? Infallibility doesn't extend to the handling of appeals from a parish, and universal jurisdiction says nothing abouthow that jurisdiction will be exercised. God knows I have lots of disagreements with papal actions or inactions, but none of that impacts in the slightest my view of universal jurisdiction. The teaching is that the successor of Peter has authority, not that he will always use it well.

I beg you to reconsider. Since, logically, the mishandling of your parish has no relationship to the content of faith, that parish closing shouldn't cause you to change your faith. Take your time and be prudent.

The move to Orthodoxy should be motivated by something other than anger.

P.S. I offer this post humbly--I haven't had a parish closed on me. I don't know what it is like. But I have known people involved in various Church scandals. One cannot let it affect one's faith. After all, of the 12 apostles, 9 ran away, 2 betrayed Christ, and only one stayed by the Cross.

P.A.,
Although I do tend to agree with you about the time factor, I think your statement
is a low blow, if you are implying Job is deserting Christ.

What do you do if your heart is Eastern and the church you've known all of your life slams the door in your face? Do you hop on down to the nearest RC parish and sign up? Not unless you have been spending half your life there and half your life here, which is what we have been told 'not to do' if we were really "Eastern". Most of us couldn't follow the pew book in a RC church.

Eastern Liturgy/Tradition/tradition is what we know, what we love. Small parishes are what we know, not parishes with thousands of people. Sorry to say, papal infallibility isn't what its all about. I am sure whatever decision Job makes will be a difficult and painful one. If in his heart he decides to lean towards our Eastern 'lung' rather than our Western "lung" we should be supportive. Neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy is truly complete without the other anyway.

Sam

No Sam, that wasn't my point.

The parallel to the apostles in my P.S. are the bishops. My point was that one shouldn't let the actions of others, no matter how bad, determine one's faith.

God forbid I should say such a thing.

P.A.

Please accept my apologies for misinterpreting your post!
Thank you for the clarification. I am in total agreement.

Peace,
Sam

Dear Pseudo-Athanasius,

I really don't see much differance between Christians, no matter what religious party they belong - especially Catholism vs Orthodoxy. After all Rome split from the Church of the Seven Councils. Communications are not what they are today and it seams the West had a less traditional meaning for the way they spread the word of our lord Jesus Christ. The Romans have been good Marketeers.

What is nice about being Byzantine Catholic is that you are under the Pope so you fit in to society with all the other Catholics. We can discuss a laundry list of items.

The Byzantine church is Orthodoxy. We just recognize the Pope, give them our money and they have absolute power over us. They don't see any reason to properly and adequately communicate with it's parishioneers. If they want your land, they will sell it and pocket the money. Rome dictates to the USA that they can't ordain married men but yet the rest of the world can ordain married men as Byzantine catholic. Does it make any sense to you????

If Holy Trinity or any of the other Byzantine Catholic churches closed by Bishop Andrew were Orthodox, the church would still be together because the people own the church. I'm sure this is enlightening to Job and why he has an interest in Orthodoxy. May God Bless you!

Basil

Basil,

When you talk about the people still being together if it was an Orthodox parish, could you elaborate a tad bit more? I'm not clear on the differences here. Whether or not the parish is Orthodox or Catholic, the bishop has no obligation to staff it with a priest.

Are you referring to the physical location?

Gordo

Like Yogi Berra used to say,

"this is like deja vu all over again"!

We Byzantine Catholics first experienced this kind of mistreatment during the Fr. Alexis Toth vs. Archbishop Ireland fiasco during the 1890's. Then mistreatment again in the 1930's during the Trustee and Celibacy court case era, and now the Passaic Eparchial mistreatment! Our we all destined to "return to Orthodoxy" before a reconcilliation happens between Rome and Orthodoxy?

Ungcsertezs

I don't know the answer to your question. However, knowing our mission and sticking with it even though it is bound to kill us will help prevent premature collapse.

Isn't there a song "It aint busy being Byzantine"?

Dan L