www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization No such thing as "parish closing"

Concerning the "lost generation," as poignantly described by Al: I don't think it is unique to Annunciation. I've attended about four or five of the parishes in the eparchy, and I haven't seen lots of 30-40 year olds in any of them, except Annunciation.

In other words, I suspect that the closing of the Joliet parish isn't what caused the children of the cradle Ruthenians to leave, since it has happened all over the place. That's why the numbers in our metropolia continue to nosedive, something like 10% in the last ten years, if I recall correctly. We failed to pass on what is distinct and beautiful about Byzantine catholicism, so that, when push comes to shove, there was no particular reason to stay.

Of course, good statistics would help.

Oh Pilgrim!! This is rich!

Kill the Old Church Slavonic that transcended but did not render the liturgy incomprehensible to multiple national language speakers, including this Gaelic Girl, because it is NOSTALGIC!!...It is [gasp] ETHNIC!!

And then offer a Spanish mass in the "old neighborhood"!!

Speaking of where the Rubber Meets the Road!

I made a conscious choice when I entered the Ruthenian Church to embrace the heritage and the language. I did not choose this jurisdiction in spite of the heritage.

And the next thing I know I am assisting at an anemic liturgy in a Church busy ripping itself up by the root!

Speaking of where the Rubber Meets the Road!

Who will begin a Blog to talk about the unspeakable ...the Nash and the not-Nash!!

Mary

Dear Mary,

What's your point? Are you arguing that we should go back to Slavonic liturgies? That to do it in Spanish would be wrong?

I would like to hear your solution to the problems facing our metropolia. You have yet to answer the problem that in twenty years or so we will have zero priests, if we continue as we are. Then every parish will close. Neither have you answered my question about your alternative vision, which envisions 40-80 member parishes bringing an Orthodox Catholic presence to their neighborhoods: how, concretely, do you get such things to happen in our parishes as they are now? Tell me what to do. What programs? What outreaches? If it hasn't happened in twenty or thirty years, how do we get it to happen now?

My tone is one of frustration, because I haven't seen answers given to the very real problems that Parma faces. We will be dead as a church, and soon. How will we fix that?

Here's a for-instance: what if there are a group of young families in Peoria, ready and willing to start a parish, but with no priest to serve them? Should they not have the divine liturgy because it would require having less divine liturgies in Cleveland?

Awaiting an answer,
Karl

Karl,

The possibility of having some missions that use old Slovanic may be a good thing. Perhaps those who speak the language and want to start some up could do so. Most Churches still have the Old Slovanic in the prayer books. The sky's the limit. We wish to reach as many people as possible with the Gospel. All we need are committed people who will do the work.

I wonder if this would be the approach of Sts. Cyril and Methodius? They spoke the language of the people despite the fact that they knew Greek. Perhaps. Any ideas on that subject?

Dan L

Mary,

Cyril and Methodius rendered the liturgy into Slavonic for our Church ancestors. Why shouldn't we also do the same for Spanish speaking peoples?

It seems that if God allowed it for the Slavs, he would also allow it for the Spanish.

Dan,

Because if Slavonic was good enough for Our Lord Jesus, it is good enough for the rest of the world

Well now see here... This response is a clear example of missing the point, or maybe jumping the point.

I have nothing against any Spanish mass anywhere, but the Second Vatican Council did in fact affirm that the liturgical languages are sacred languages.

Now, oddly enough, sacred languages derive from the vernacular. I always found that odd, don't you? That sacred or liturgical languages derive from the vernacular, by appropriating and adapting meanings in the lexicon that are particular to liturgy, mystagogy and catechesis. Yes indeed. That is just what happens.

What seems strange to me is the suppression of an ethnic language that is comprehensible to many and a liturgical language t'boot! "Nostalgic" I think is the word of diminution.

"Quaint!" That's a good evangelical word don't you think?

Anyone know how to say "Quaint" in Spanish?

And I'd also like to know what you plan to do, when you are quite successful in building a Big Lots parish with a Spanish mass, and the Latin rite bishops point the finger of accusation and cry "Poachers!"

Best to plan for success, I'd say.

Most likely the same thing will happen with the Spanish liturgies in the Metropolia that happened to our hope of married priests.

Passaic's successful Spanish liturgy and the offending translator-priest are nowhere to be found these days.

More tomorrow.

Good night and God bless...

Mary

Dear Karl,

I am suggesting that it was a near-fatal error to suppress the Slavonic. And no, I have no difficulty with a Spanish translation of St. John's liturgy.

I am fully aware of your frustrations and have no facile answers to the problems that beset our dioceses and the entire Metropolia.

I do know that thirty years ago we were growing like wild fire and that came to a screeching halt. I do not know with certitude but I suspect that there was pressure put on us from outside, but that is only an educated guess, and is only part of the problem but a perennial problem and one that has not gone away.

I do know that the Ruthenian faithful often did and do not have a realistic set of expectations and offerings for the collection baskets, which is probably the determining factor in my example of the several Orthodox parishes that I know that are not much bigger than our parishes in Hawk Run or in Granville, but they are not Bingo dependent or on the verge of extinction.

I wish to God I had an answer but I believe it begins with internal evangelization with the Book and not the pocket-book.

I believe that we need to gather our clergy together and heal the broken and nurture the weary ones...NOT refer to them as "dead wood"...or terrorize them as it is being done in the Passaic diocese.

My God!

Well...there's more but I am weary tonight. My father died in August and my mother is 74 and in need of me now as I was in need of her at 7.

So my heart goes out to you Karl.

In the peace of the Christ.

Mary

John,

You do have a point there. It is better that we converse in private I think. There are some interesting ideas floating about. Maybe we can do something with them. But not here.

Dan L

People take note:

Ruthenian parishes have suffered for years because some members worked to the exclusion of others. The few made policy for the many and the many allowed that to happen because it was easier. The few even tried to take the place of the priest. And gossip mongering and back-biting became the order of the day!

That is and has been a human scourge of most of the small Ruthenian parishes that I have ever encountered.

And here is that attitude all over again.

"If we can't have it the way we want it we'll do it where you cannot see it!"

And we are supposed to see this as the Springtime of Evangelization?

You will not ever see an Evangelical Springtime without first encountering the Winter of Discontent.

Best to fact it head on and with charity and courage.

That appears to be asking too much...here.

No wonder we have no vocations. Who would want to be a priest to this kind of behavior?

Mary

Mary,

Everything that we have done in Parma has been above board. Our documents are public, the meeting was held in public, the Bishop was there, 120 people from the Eparchy and other areas were there.

We sent notices to our parishes, we talked to people, we asked them to attend.

Your suggestion that this is being done behind people's backs is simply wrong.

Your comments on the lack of charity... I am speechless... it is akin to a man who kills his parents and then asks the judge for mercy because he is an orphan.

When you show charity, you will receive charity.

People take note:

Dear John,

It's only this attitude that is distressing to see. It is nothing new among the laity in our Church, and it has been very distructive over the generations.

It does nothing to enhance a sense of belonging and it censors all but the "accepted" voices.

It appears that I am about to be banned once again from this august company for suggesting that our bishops bear a great weight of responsibility and have not been the best of men in the past generations of bishops.

I am not sure if I am going to be banned because that statement is false or because we are so ashamed of it that we dare not speak of it in public. But the damage in the Church does not begin and end at in the pews.

It would be better to speak of it or it will repeat itself over and over again.

There is not need to condemn the man in order to acknowledge the behavior...any man or woman, I mean here. You may well love the sinner and abhor the sin, love the man and wish he had been a better man.

I wish this Forum were a better freer place to be.

Mary

Mary,

Before you reply to any other posts, I advise you to see the Administrator's post in the Evangelization Movement.

Father Anthony+

From what happened to CIN-east/CATHeast which had to go to FULL moderation, this is still quite free flowing!!!!!!!!

Freedom always has two sides. Responsibility is on one of them.

You have loudly proclaimed 'fire' in the crowded theatre (this BBS), but the reaction is different than what you expected. Pause then for a moment and see what is happening. Yes, We have acknowledged that there are problems, but rather than mass panic, there is a sense of order and calm. With some discussion and leadership we see that there is more smoke than fire and we see that there is a way out. There will be some work involved. Some prayer. while there sure to be be setbacks, the goals are clear.

Steve

How is the reaction different from what I expected, Steve? What do you think I expect from my Church, Steve? What do you think I expect after today?

Mary