www.byzcath.org

Well, in all fairness I don't think it's fair to say that Sister Lucia has contradicted Fr. Gruner. I read some books on this subject (biased of course, but what account isn't?), and I think it's a very real possibility that Sister Lucia is being "shut up" by Cardinal Ratzinger (who I don't think is really that bad) and her God-awful Ordinary (who I do think is really that bad).

And all this fuss about this TV show has only added to the numbers of those who will view it (including myself).

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

The question was put to Sister Lucia by Cardinal Ratzinger himself and she responded in agreement that Russia was consecrated.

If the Catholic Church is doing such a great job of shutting Sister Lucia up, what is it doing wrong with Fr. Gruner?

Fr. Gruner's site is very unecumenical and very anti-Orthodox.

And it appears to be presenting Fatima as a dogma of Catholicism - something all Catholics must accept on divine faith or something like that.

His is a group that believes that Russia must be converted to Catholicism, to be under Rome.

Is that how we approach the Orthodox today?

Alex

Fatima is certainly no dogma of Catholicism that anyone is required to believe. It is nothing more than private revelation and can be believed or disbelieved as one chooses. Saying that, however, I do think Fatima does cause some events of the 20th century to make a little more sense than they would otherwise. I remember when Fr. Gruner became more widely known. He essentially appealed to conservative Catholics who were looking for reasons for the chaos in society and the post Vatican II Church. I think he has gotten a little more shrill and extreme over time. I also think that if Rome says the Fatima consecrations are accomplished, then by what authority does Fr. Gruner disagree? It was, after all, the Pope who had the authority to make the consecration. Fr. Gruner never had any authority in the matter.

Dear Charles,

Certainly, by saying that the consecration of Russia has been done, what one may call "extreme Fatimist" groups lose much of their reason for even existing.

At no point did any of the revelations at Fatima affirm that Orthodox Christians are to be converted to Rome (as an interpretation that "Russia will be converted.")

That communist Russia is now being converted is obvious as the Orthodox Church is prospering, the Churches are filled, people are receiving the sacraments/mysteries and monastic life is flowering.

The prophecy of Fatima has been fulfilled in Russia. The rest is up to ecumenical talks based on mutual respect, love and earnest prayer to Christ that "all may be one."

Alex

Dear Alex,

I believe Sr. Lucia is much more easily kept quiet by Church authorities than is Fr. Gruner because she is cloistered and, it seems, has the highest respect for those Church officials who have the lowest for her.

On a personal note, I do believe that Russia must be converted to fulness of the Catholic Faith, which I believe resides only within what we call the Catholic Communion of the 22 Churches. I think this, perhaps, will come when the Russian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church heal the Schism.

I am greatly encouraged by the apparent inroads the ROC has made into Russia since the collapse of the U.S.S.R. Nonetheless, I don't think Russia is currently a holy country, or anything even approarching holy. I think it's basically another morally decrepit, capitalist, consumer-driven nation. I mean, it's really not noticably different than the United States, which is overwhelmingly Protestant and certainly isn't "converted" in any sense of the term.

I hate to play the cynical conspiracy theorist (and, I promise you, I am not prone to conspiracy theories whatsoever), but this is my take on the subject.

Logos Teen

Well, Teen, I know this is your personal opinion but this form of "healing" the schism will never win any takers among Orthodox believers, Hierarchs or laypeople. I know that it is not your intent but this comes across to especially Russian Orthodox believers as rather like religious imperialism on the part of the RCC which had been tried before during the period of the Counter-Reformation. Coming back into communion with one another will take MUCH time, effort, prayer and humility on both sides and a coming together of equals. It will not be the same model of unity as that of Florence or indeed, Brest in 1596.

Garrett,

Just as an aside, what does that mean and on what is it based?

Brian is absolutely correct and very kind, in fact, at suggesting that it isn't your intent to come across as a Latin triumphalist. Unfortunately, based on what you've said elsewhere and at other times in this same regard, I think he's wrong.

Youth is a wonderful thing, giving one an energy and an enthusiasm that oft eludes the elder among us. It is a shame to see youth muddied by old men's ideas, ideas that were ancient before you were born and which, in your own lifetime, have been replaced by a more loving and open understanding of what it means for a Church and its faithful to be of God.

Continuing along this line of thinking will only serve to see you categorized among fundamentalists, as defined on another thread - and it's not a positive definition.

(BTW, there are 23 Churches in the Catholic Communion.)

That comment, intended or not, slurs Protestants and suggests that moral decrepitness, capitalism, and rank consumerism are, somehow, attributable to Protestantism. Those who came to where they are from other places and elect to disparage their origins are among the most egregious of fundamentalists, because they fail to acknowledge the role that their origins had in forming them and making of them the person within.

Many years,

Neil

That comment, intended or not, slurs Protestants and suggests that moral decrepitness, capitalism, and rank consumerism are, somehow, attributable to Protestantism.

Many years,

Neil [/QB][/QUOTE]


Neil- but isn't that precisely what Max Weber contended in his work? And what the Catholic neoconservatives say?
After all, Calvinism easily sees earthly reward as a sign of predestination, and their frugal, pleasure-denying ethos is very conducive to avarice.

The Wesleyan tradition, in many ways a Catholic movement within Protestantism, with its social ethic, is a different story, as is the quasi-monastic Anabaptist tradition...
-Daniel

"Heavens Key to Peace" was awesome. According to a few Catholic scholars in the movie, world peace can be achieved through the TRUE consecration of Russia. Some of these same scholars claom Sr. Lucia, has said that the 1984 Consecration did not sufice our Ladies wishes, therefore I believe Fa. Gruner's uphill battle to get Russia consecrated is valid. The Vatican Beauracracy is probably the not allowing our Ladies wishes to occur. Peace to all.

First of all I'de like to say that I am upset that the reply that I posted yesterday is no longer up. It seems the devil is working awfully hard to disrupt the work of Gods and Our Ladies Servant.
Second, I'd like to say that "Heavens Key to Peace" was awesome. According to a few Catholic scholars in the movie, world peace can be achieved through the TRUE consecration of Russia. Some of these same scholars claim Sr. Lucia has said that the 1984 Consecration did not sufice our Ladies wishes, therefore I believe Fa. Gruner's continous battle to get Russia consecrated is valid. The Vatican Beauracracy is probably the one not allowing Our Ladies wishes to take effect. Even his Holyness, Pope John Paul II agrees that what was consecrated was the world, which included Russia, but the consecration was not specifically directed at Russia. This is what our Lady and Sr. Luci want. Peace to all.

First of all I'de like to say that I am upset that the reply that I posted yesterday is no longer up. It seems the devil is working awfully hard to disrupt the work of Gods and Our Ladies Servant.
Second, I'd like to say that "Heavens Key to Peace" was awesome. According to a few Catholic scholars in the movie, world peace can be achieved through the TRUE consecration of Russia. Some of these same scholars claim Sr. Lucia has said that the 1984 Consecration did not sufice our Ladies wishes, therefore I believe Fa. Gruner's continous battle to get Russia consecrated is valid. The Vatican Beauracracy is probably the one not allowing Our Ladies wishes to take effect. Even his Holyness, Pope John Paul II agrees that what was consecrated was the world, which included Russia, but the consecration was not specifically directed at Russia. This is what our Lady and Sr. Luci want. Peace to all.

beep beep beep :rolleyes:

First of all I'de like to say that I am upset that the reply that I posted yesterday is no longer up. It seems the devil is working awfully hard to disrupt the work of Gods and Our Ladies Servant.
Second, I'd like to say that "Heavens Key to Peace" was awesome. According to a few Catholic scholars in the movie, world peace can be achieved through the TRUE consecration of Russia. Some of these same scholars claim Sr. Lucia has said that the 1984 Consecration did not sufice our Ladies wishes, therefore I believe Fa. Gruner's continous battle to get Russia consecrated is valid. The Vatican Beauracracy is probably the one not allowing Our Ladies wishes to take effect. Even his Holyness, Pope John Paul II agrees that what was consecrated was the world, which included Russia, but the consecration was not specifically directed at Russia. This is what our Lady and Sr. Luci want. Peace to all.
P.S. this is my third time I'm sending the same message and it doesn't go to thecorrect forum. I'll try once again.

It is on my tv now, since I had forgot about it until I saw this post. I still think it is really interesting that they are playing this on a Protestant station. I wonder what the responce will be.

Since I was not aware of all the controvercy before I posted this originally, I have been watching with interest. I had sent out info about it to some of my Protestant friends along with Catholic to let them know where the Chruch stands on this officiallly. So I hope that helps with any misunderstanding they may have.

Pani Rose

Brian,

Thank you for your kind reply. I don't disagree with you that the reunification of the various national Orthodox Churches with the Catholic Church will likely happen in a much different manner than in Florence or Brest. But I also believe that the end result will be acceptance of the Faith as found within the Catholic Communion.

Certainly, you as an Orthodox believe reunification will only occur with the acceptance of the Faith as found within the Orthodox Churches? It is not "triumphalist" for you to believe this (in fact, it's the only understandable position), and I don't think it's triumphalistic for my to assume the same.

Neil,

If you want to classify me as a Latin triumphalist, go right ahead. I love Eastern traditions, I attend a Novus Ordo parish - - - I don't think that squares with "Latin triumphalism." If by "Latin triumphalist," you mean that I believe the Communion of 23 Catholic Churches contains the fulness of the Faith to be found nowhere else, then yes I suppose your classification is correct; and then I'd have to argue with the derogatory way in which you use the phrase.

Just because you assent to the viewpoint the hierarchy of the Church has embraced of late concerning the reunification of Churches and ecumenical dialogue does not mean that others feel this way, or that this is so, and that these new methods have to be accepted under pain of being ridiculed by those such as yourself.

So, if you're trying to guilt me into changing my opinion on a whim or feeling ashamed and "fundamentalist" for what I believe is the right approach to ecumenism, I regret to tell you that you're barking up the wrong tree.

Logos Teen