www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology I was told there is a Charasmatic movement in Orthodoxy?

Someone told me that Fr. Serafim Rose (sp?) was a Charasmatic.

I can not find any evidence of this.

Is speaking in tongues a practice of Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholics?

I never heard of this before, and was hoping someone here would be able to clarify, I have googled this and find no credible evidence of it.

Does anyone know?

Dear Juliana,

This person is wholly incorrect. Fr Seraphim Rose of blessed memory actually wrote a devestating critique of the charismatic movement in his book 'Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future'. You can read extracts from this work plus other articles critical of the charismatic movement here:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_charismatics.aspx

In his book, Fr Seraphim does mention a Greek Orthodox priest in America who was drawn into the charismatic movement at its beginning, but he remains an isolated and controversial figure. Orthodoxy teaches the right doctrine of the Holy Spirit and thus has no need to import teachings or practices from pentecostalism.

Brigid

I coughed up my morning coffee all over my clean white shirt!!!! Michael Jackson has a better chance of being elected president of the John Birch Society than Blessed Seraphim Rose has of being considered a Charismatic! What a country!

Alexandr

Right, Fr Seraphim opposed it and the Greek Orthodox priest is Fr Eusebios Stephanou, I think in Florida. He is an isolated and controversial figure but IIRC from glancing at his site he's not unorthodox theologically or even liturgically (no praise bands or overhead projectors) but the charismatic stuff is a kind of devotional add-on to the usual Orthodox stuff. He just seems enthusiastic (in the colloquial sense) about small-o and probably big-O orthodox Christianity.

Some say Orthodoxy's built-in mysticism means there never has been a felt need there for a Pietist (in Germany and Scandinavia; could Methodism, which broke away from Anglicanism and whence Pentecostalism came, be described as English Pietism?) or Pentecostal/charismatic movement to offset spiritual dryness.

Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics AFAIK don't do glossolalia (for lack of a better description, ecstatic speaking of nonsense words) but I think some saints have had the gift of tongues as traditionally understood - they could communicate with foreign-language speakers even though they'd never studied the speaker's language.

Here is the website to the Archimandrite Eusebius Stephanou's Brotherhood of St. Symeon the New Theologian.

http://www.stsymeon.org/index.htm

Yes, perhaps but the charismatic movement originated outside the Church and as such has to be treated with caution. I first encountered it in the Catholic church as a teenager in the 70s on a visit to relatives in the US. Some friends of our family had become very heavily involved in the 'renewal' and it was a huge shock to this convent schoolgirl to hear Catholics who sounded just like Protestants. One of their number was getting married and I was invited to the wedding. At the Mass the charismatics all got together at the front of the church just before the Offertory and began speaking in tongues, I found it very divisive. They punctuated the Liturgy with shouts of Hallelujah, very loud Amens and Praise be to Jesus accompanied by handwaving. I also noted that they were the only Catholics I ever met who did not have a devotion to Our Lady. Interestingly, the Theotokos does not seem to get much of a look-in with Fr Eusebios either.

Whilst there may not be a felt need for a Pietist movement in Orthodoxy its influence is nevertheless not unknown. There are pietistic brotherhoods active in Greece which display a Protestant influence. A Greek friend grew up in one of these groups and he told me that they have their own priests, lay organizations and enforce a strict moral code on their members. Christos Yannaras has written on 'Pietism as an Ecclesiological Heresy' which is online here:

http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/pietism.html

He discusses pietism in relation to Orthodoxy in the additional note at the end of the piece.

I read recently somewhere online that the Athonite elder Porphyrios employed the gift of tongues in its true sense. On one occasion a French pilgrim who was in great distress was counselled by him even though they had no common language. He spoke in Greek but the woman heard him in French and vice versa.

Brigid

Dear Brigid,

Charismatic RCs may have imitated the Protestants and downplayed Marian devotion in the 1970s, and I got a whiff of that from them as recently as 20 years ago. But starting about 15 years ago they have re-catholicised very much and are considered part of the orthodox restoration in that church. They love the Rosary and Benediction even though their liturgics are still rather Low Church but even that's starting to change.

Unfortunately, it is true that in some arenas the breath of Satan has entered the Church. This surrendering to unknown spirits is part and parcel of possession. If only people would read the Fathers who warn strongly against the wiles of the Evil One.

Alexandr

And if only more pastors, parents and the rest of us would help people to truly experience the Holy Spirit, there wouldn't be a need for a "pentecostal movement." But, many of us in the Church fail to be truly alive in the Holy Spirit. As a result, we fail to help other people to be alive in the Holy Spirit too. We cannot give what we do not have. The pentecostal movement, the new age movement, etc. are symptoms of the Church (all of us) failing to provide people with the experience of the Holy Spirit; and so, people are looking for the Holy Spirit in any way they can. Sometimes they find Him; sometimes not. But, all of this is a strong sign of our failure --as the Church, the Body of Christ-- to be alive in the Holy Spirit and thereby to witness to Him to others.

-- John

That's interesting to know, thanks very much.

Brigid

We do lots of "speaking in tongues", but they mostly involve the use of various languages for our services and, less frequently, for sermons, Confessions, and so on. You might enjoy a sermon I published as an article in Eastern Churches Journal seven or eight years ago; title is "What Does This Mean"? It discusses the Christian importance of my own national language (Irish, of course).

Fr. Serge

But we do have the Holy Spirit in the Divine Liturgy, in prayer and fasting, and in the example of the Saints. My own view of the charismatic movement is that it is the attempt to substitute emotions for clear thinking in Christian spirituality. It is entirely the creation of late nineteenth century holiness preachers who were heavily influenced by pietism. One can see it as a revival of ancient Montanism and Messalianism. The Messalianists claimed to have sensible experiences of the Holy Spirit and they were condemned for heresy. I apologize to any brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum who consider themselves Charismatic, but I think that the objective evidence is overwhelming that pentecostalism/charismatic Christianity is based on a misinterpretation of Scripture and a substitution of personal feelings for objective reality. Peace in Christ,

Joe

Joe,

Nice to see you posting again.

There is also an Orthodox tradition of the sensible experience of the Holy Spirit. To what specific teachings of Montanism and Messalianism are you referring, remembering that similarity does not mean sameness?

We had a very extensive dialogue on the charismatic renewal movement some months ago, but I cannot get my search feature to work properly. (The date ranges are confusing for me...)

God bless,

Gordo

Gordo,

It might take me a little time, but I will look up some info. on Messalianism for you. The writings of Pseudo-Macarius at one time were accused of it for its language about tasting of the Holy Spirit and visibly seeing the Holy Spirit. Peace in Christ,

Joe

And, by the way, I am not condemning anyone personally. I am just saying that I think the distinctive charismatic ideas about baptism in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc. have their roots in heretical sources, that's all. Peace in Christ,

Joe