www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Liturgy is Promulgated!

Stephanie Kotyuh,

Cradle Byzantine what? Melkite? Ruthenian? Not to pry, but what ethinicity is your last name?

Church Slavonic has a beautiful and sanctified history, that's why I think it should be at least partially retained.

I have to say though, I do not think the Ruthenian Byzantine Church can survive the way it currently is and is going when re-unification of East and West happens.

Though there is no Orthodox counterpart per se, I think the Byzantine Ruthenian Church in America will be eventually absorbed into one of the larger Slavic Churches when re-unification happens.

Any thoughts on this?

Our liturgy is being ransacked and a debate regarding Church Slavonic has broken out, oh boy.

In an effort to bring this back to the salient point at hand here, the big picture of what is going on needs to be addressed and to entertain the Church Slavonic lot I'll even write about that as well.

Our leaders have been and continue to embark us on a journey of being completely independent of any other Catholic Rite, independent of Orthodoxy, independent of ethnic heritages, independent of anything but well themselves which is what independent is period. The same people for the same reasons who have pushed for this feminized, watered down, chopped up liturgy are also the same people who are stamping out any remains of Slavonic. Slavonic has ties to Orthodoxy, the Russians use it, so do the Serbs, and other Orthodox jusrisdictions. Any remains of Slavonic also has ties to our Traditional past and words from the past. You know, dirty words, like 'Pravoslavny'. If a dirty word like that is eradicated then we can get away with horrific translations like 'Christians of the true faith.' 'Nas radi chelovik' in the Creed, why of course that chelovik word is a reminder of anthropos, this a bad and dirty word. In fact, the heck with even translating it. Let's do this, let's take it out.

Side note: One of the entertaining parts of this whole thing is when Father David tells us all the need to clean up translations and the 'good scholarship' behind it. And then 'Pravoslavny' doesn't get translated to Orthodox but rather 'Christians of the true faith.' And of course we can see the great scholarship by taking out 'anthropos' What hubris.

This isn't good. We can't have too much in common with those Orthodox types. There's even some UGCC parishes in Western PA that I know of who still celebrate in Slavonic. We have to on our own island. Same thing with the Liturgy. We can't share a rescension with the Ukes. We can't have a similar liturgy to the Orthodox. We have to have our own, with our own translation, with our own rubrics, everything is on our own. No Orthodox, no Ukes, and even that ACROD lot that sings like us, well we showed them and changed our music even, ha ha. See, once upon a time it was bad when the Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, UGCC, Ruthenian Catholic, etc. all had a common liturgical language. Way too much unity going on there, and when you want to be on an island unity is bad.

(Disclaimer: before the cries of accusing me of pushing for full Slavonic, all the time start, let me tell you. If we are to grow and evangelize in this country vernacular is how it is going to happen. But to totally disregard where we are from and to be almost appear to be ashamed of our roots and to revel in ignorance by thumbing our noses at a Liturgical language is sad.)

What's that you say? The Pope wants us to work toward unity? No, we're going off on our own tangent. And in case anyone forgot, here's the playbook. If anyone starts bringing up crazy stuff like having Vespers, Matins, Proskomedia, etc. just yell 'Pastoral Sensitivity' until you are blue in the face, it always shuts them up. But remember, 'Pastoral Sensitivity' is out the window when we jam this New Liturgy down the throats of the Faithful. When they question it, just claim 'scholarship', but don't bring up pastoral sensitivity, it's not relevant to revisionists.

Monomakh

Laka Ya Rabb --

I am Ruthenian -- my grandparents were "off the boat" Slovaks, and my Father and his brothers and sisters learned Slovak as their first language. I too understand the beautiful and sanctified history of Church Slavonic -- but most people don't. Therein is the problem. If we had parish priests who held classes to explain the Byzantine Faith to the faithful, chances are we'd be in a much different scenario. People would understand how close we are to Orthodoxy in Liturgical practice. We wouldn't have to argue the merits of Vespers, Matins, the Hours or fight over kneeling on Sundays.

All the Byzantine Churches will be weakened by this new version of the Divine Liturgy. Now, not only will we All be separated by language and chant-styles, the divide will become greater as we'll be separated by the Liturgy too. It's almost as though the Hierarchs set out to create their own brand. Sad.

I know a Melkite priest who was talking to a 30 year old parishioner who said she was looking for another church, as she felt her Melkite parish wouldn't be around forever. When quizzed further, she explained that the Melkite church would get smaller and smaller as people married "Americans." Apparently she felt her church was ethnic. When he asked her what churches she was looking at, she replied, "Orthodox Church of America or Roman Catholic." What??? She went on to explain that she wouldn't dare join another Byzantine Rite as her ethnicity wouldn't be welcomed.

We definitely have a problem when other Byzantines look outside to other churches, rather than just the jurisdiction. That's why we're losing so many people. There has to be a balance. But as Monomokh said earlier, we've got bigger dragons to slay right now before we debate the merits of Slavonic. If this Liturgy happens, the Ruthenian Church will be the laughing stock of the other Byzantines and Orthodoxy. And this Liturgy may be something we never recover from.

John G,

Naughty, naughty. You wrote "KINGdom". That isn't allowed.

CDL

Some music my parish has done for years is not in the new book, based on my listening to the music on the MCI website. So, in addition to adjusting to language changes, we will also be learning new music. Pastoral care will be needed for this is to work.

Jim,

Yes. I am interested in how the various priests will implement it. I think I'll start a new thread to discuss its implementation.

Dang...

I knew that I would blow it...

So what is the PC version of Kingdom? Dictatorship? Ahhhh....

and God's Nation will have no end

Does that make everyone "Feel" better now?

But there IS an Orthodox counterpart... The American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox (Greek Catholic) Church. They broke from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church and returned to Orthodoxy.

Stephanie,

Are you Slovak, or are you Rusyn, which is what a Ruthenian is?

Ungcsertezs

Hmm. Not doing it for me. It has too much of a pro-national political feel for me. You know our nation is evil, don't you? All government is evil. How about commonwealth? That implies shared ownership. I think that will fit these political times better. :rolleyes:

Actually, I'd choose empire. Sounds so regal, doesn't it? Not to mention that an empress or an emperor either one can rule it. Double points!

I'm going to start a new thread in the town hall for this!

Magosci to the rescue!!! Does he post here?

Not under his own name according to the user list and search feature.

I have posted very few comments in The Revised Divine Liturgy Forum. I have done so because I'm fairly new to the BCC and would need to become much better educated in order to make a positive contribution to the discussion. Also, I'm sympathetic to the concerns of people on both sides of the argument, which makes it difficult for me to place myself firmly in either camp. However, I do have a question. Since Vatican II has proclaimed that we are to embrace our Eastern Christian tradition in all its fullness and Pope JP II taught that the Eastern Catholic Churches have a special role to play in seeking unity with the Orthodox Churches, why can't we use the same liturgy one of the Orthodox Churches is using? For me, the OCA liturgy comes to mind-perhaps because I came to the BCC from the OCA. Does anyone have any insight into this matter?
Thank you,
Ryan

The OCA, while composed mostly of Carpatho-Rusyns, follows the Russian Recension of the Liturgy and employs Russian style chant and polyphony.

The Rusyn, Ukrainian, Slovak, Hungarian, and Croatian Greek Catholic Churches follow the Ruthenian Recension and plainchant- Prostopinje.

There are differences between the Russian and Ruthenian recensions and in areas the Ruthenian practice is closer to the Greek practice than Russian. Our Orthodox equvalent is ACROD and their books are based on ours.

Fr. Deacon Lance