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Originally Posted by Etnick
"Why is it that the Revisionists always label those seeking authentic restoration of our tradition as 'troublemakers'?"


Because deep down inside they are western christians. They know it. They try to drag the good people down with them. Traitors to the Byzantine tradition all of them.

Ahem - I haven't been around here for a while, except to check my messages. But I read your message, Etnick, and can't help but wonder - are you saying that "western christians" are different than "good people"?

"I ask only for information." (Marvin the Paranoid Android) wink

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Reasons why this will be a disaster:

1) We are told, by Rome, to be faithful to our spiritual heritage; in other words, be more Orthodox.

2) We are given a liturgy that does not match #1, despite all the good work done for it.

3) No one in the hierarchy or clergy appears to be making much of a case why there should be Byzantine _Catholics_ at all. Why be Catholic rather than Orthodox?

Combine the three, and you have a recipe for a wholesale flight to Orthodoxy.

This is a perfect storm.


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P-A's comments are themselves quite perfect. The reason for being Byzantine Catholic, ie, "Orthodox in union with Rome" is to be both Orthodox and Catholic. For those of us who are Byzantine Catholic, this is not an inherent contradiction, but what we believe to be true orthodoxy. The Revised Liturgy (particularly with the inclusive language) does not allow us to strive for real Orthodoxy or real Catholicism. This is a perfect storm, because it affects the conscience deeply.

If, however, one is willing to simply ignore the facts (eg, that the THE CREED HAS BEEN CHANGED--to please the "feminists"), there will be no storm but only a fizzle. Unfortunately much of Catholicism in America simply learns to ignore facts and words. Would, however, that we took words as seriously as those "feminists" who are demanding that our Creed be changed to comport with their ideas of equality. My gut and conscience tell me that the Fathers of Nicea and Constantinople would not tolerate it.

Meanwhile the real feminists who are doing the daily work of rearing children and teaching them the real Creed, will quietly pass on the faith at home to their children. God bless them all.


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"If, however, one is willing to simply ignore the facts (eg, that the THE CREED HAS BEEN CHANGED--to please the "feminists"), there will be no storm but only a fizzle. Unfortunately much of Catholicism in America simply learns to ignore facts and words."

The most upsetting thing is that we would even have to "fight" for the Creed inside our Churches. The Creed is rightfully ours. Does anyone have the right to take it from us?

I think we need to ask why the hierarchy would even contemplate changing the Creed. What are the motives? Just to make a few squeaky wheels (feminist, modernist) happy? Or is there something even worse (knowingly or unknowingly) going on here?...

Those of us who feel we have been "robbed" are not troublemakers. We just know we have been robbed. While others turn their heads and ignore the fact that a precious treasure has been removed/denied/stolen. Remember the Commandment -- THOU SHALL NOT STEAL....

Even though we supposed troublemakers understand we have been robbed, we need to understand a more important principal than "our rights" is at stake. Ultimately, changing the Creed is an attack against GOD. This is naturalism under the disguise of progress. Naturalism goes against the Supernatural and puts man in the place of GOD. This is the real battle going on here.

I believe that changing the Creed is about displacing our proper relationship with GOD. It is not about my personal "feelings" on the subject. And yes, the troublemakers are passionate. They know that it is not about them, this is about respecting and honoring GOD, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Could it be that the troublemakers are those who understand they fight for the glory and adoration of GOD? Maybe the troublemakers are not self-interest individuals? Maybe they see a different picture?

Come to think of it. Yes, I guess I am a troublemaker, after all. Because I fight against naturalism. I am happy to be causing "trouble" against those spirits which are against GOD.

Blessed is our GOD!
corsair

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Dear Friends--

I have been thinking a lot about this and a couple of questions have come to mind. These are legitamite to me and not meant to start a flame war or desparage others. Please do not take them and twist them. I would like mature and constructive conversation.

For personal reasons, outside the revision of the DL, I've been attending an Anglo-Catholic/Episcopal church where Elizabethan English is employed (Rite I for those of you who know the Book of Common Prayer) with the exception of the Nicene Creed which is chanted but in modern English using "For us and for our salvation." No one seems to bat an eye that "man" is used throughout the Mass as a term for both men and women or that "for us men" is edited out of the Creed. Or for that matter that they're using a language (dialect?) that certainly is not employed anywhere in the world today as everyday speech. This parish is in the midst of a very liberal Ivy league university and is attended by many students. The Mass is said "ad orientem" on a high altar miles away from the congregation and separated from the nave by an immense Rood Screen.

Therefore I pose, was the reasoning behind the inclusive language being put into the revised Divine Liturgy that:

1) Everyday American English has evolved to the point where "man, he, mankind, etc." as generic terms for men and women is a thing of the past and in order to make it accessible, those terms needed to be reworked?

2) The ******* Church(es) does/do this so we should as well?

3) By expelling "sexist" terminology, we'll draw more people in who have no faith and stop the hemorrage of our youth and more educated people.

4) We need to do this for women.

You can see why the issue of (liturgical) language has been on my mind. I await your thoughts.

John

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ok-no twisting.

I believe that you are right that one of the reasons for dropping "men" from the Creed is the claim that

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1) Everyday American English has evolved to the point where "man, he, mankind, etc." as generic terms for men and women is a thing of the past and in order to make it accessible, those terms needed to be reworked?

If, however, in fact, everyday "English" were truly misunderstood, then when

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"man" is used throughout the Mass as a term for both men and women

it would be misunderstood. But as you observe, it does not appear to be misunderstood.


I think that your point that:

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By expelling "sexist" terminology, we'll draw more people in who have no faith and stop the hemorrage of our youth and more educated people.


is one of the the reasons that "inclusive language" is being proposed.

I have grave reservations, however, about the claim that those who are demanding this language are "more educated people." These men and women may in fact be attending college's and universties where "inclusive language" is a "sign" of "education." I propose, however, that the Father's of the Church, St. Paul and the author of Genesis, were far more educated than students and graduates of modern colleges and universities because the Fathers, St. Paul and the author of Genesis were better judges of first principles which is of the essence of true education. Anthropos and man are equivalents even though modern academia rejects that fact. But most of modern academia accepts that human fetuses may be subject to private execution--a sign that there judgment about first principles is not very good.

In an artice I read today, speaking of a doctor of the Church, the author states:

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There was not...one doctrine for theologians and another for ordinary believers; and certainly nothing of the division we often see today between teaching which all but denies the faith itself, and the orthodox teaching which is seen as a collection of myths which satisfy only the ignorant...There is...as for any christian, one faith, one doctrine, one teaching understood by the believer more or less fully depending upon his natural ability, training, circumstance, grace and opportunity.


I think the real issue is whether we have faith "seeking understand" or whether we will "tweek" the faith because of modern biases and misconceptions. Changing the Creed is a very big matter. As has been pointed out, anathemas have been attached to any changes. One better be perfectly certain that any change is truly organic before one makes a change. If it is organic, its roots will be deeper and more secure and its flowers will be more beautiful and perfect.

Moreoever, because these changes in translation are by their very nature intellectual, they are either true or false. If true, not only the Liturgy and the Creed must be changed but also all of Scripture and anything written by the Fathers must also be changed in translation for modern men and women so that they can truly understand the Gospel. I submit that what we have seen in the Roman Church has shown that these changes in translation have not converted anyone or made the Gospel more accesible to the world. I would like to close this with a quote from Cardinal Ratzinger in the "The Spirit of the Liturgy," in the chapter entitled "Rite". [p 168, Ignatius Press]

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The life of liturgy does not come from what dawns upon the minds of individuals and planning groups. On the contrary, it is God's descent upon our world, the source of real liberation. He alone can open the door to freedom. The more priests and faithful humbly surrender themselves to this descent of God, the more 'new' liturgy will constantly be, and the more true and personal it becomes. Yes, the liturgy becomes personal, true, and new, not through tomfoolery and banal experiments with the words, but through a courageous entry into the great reality that through rite is always ahead of us and can never be quite overtaken.

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Those of us who feel we have been "robbed" are not troublemakers. We just know we have been robbed. While others turn their heads and ignore the fact that a precious treasure has been removed/denied/stolen. Remember the Commandment -- THOU SHALL NOT STEAL....

I just want to take the moment to thank all of those who have shown compassion towards the "suffering". Truly, I feel anguish over the changes regarding "inclusive language". For the record, whoever is behind this does not represent me, a forty year old wife, mother, and teacher. I am very, very sad also. I would not resist, but for the faith of my children. By nature I am not a "trouble maker".However, I am gravely compelled to sacrifice for the spiritual well-being of my own. In spite of the motives attributed to them, I think that the vast majority of resisters cannot in good conscience cooperate. I love the Byzantine Rite!

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Dear John:

Here is my two cents or just some random thoughts. I hope I don't come off as "fuming". Passionate maybe, and never offensive, I hope. Be forewarned this is a gender specific zone, and this IS how we raise our family!

You wrote:
"3) By expelling "sexist" terminology, we'll draw more people in who have no faith and stop the hemorrage of our youth and more educated people.
4) We need to do this for women."

As a woman, I do not find "sexist" terminology in the Divine Liturgy. You see, the WORLD has told us these words are "sexist" and demeaning. But are they? Is this the truth? Or a lie from the depths of hell? Is there some deeper meaning here? More than the slogan, I am women hear me roar?

In my opinion, the world has required/coerest me to act like a man and not a woman. I was constantly proving myself equal (most often BETTER) to my male peers in high school and college. My authentic womanhood has been something I had to learn as an adult, after I had children. What freedom I have when I stopped trying to compete with men.

For me, I have found my authentic womanhood only in accepting my vocation as a wife and a mother. When the DL is striped of it's "sexist" terminology, you have in effect done what the World has done. Abandoned GOD'S design. Abandoned what GOD has called me to do. As a women, I have found my fulfillment in my vocation. My vocation is to embrace my role in the family. You see John, only in my husband's authentic manhood have I found my authentic womanhood. It is the most beautiful thing. REALLY. It doesn't deny me my rights, it frees me and allows me to be myself, a woman. (I am women, HEAR ME PRAY?)

For me, removing "sexist" terminology denies that my husband and I are fundamentally different. EQUAL IN DIGNITY! But we have different roles. The best way to understand it is that the father is the head of the family, and the mother is the heart of the family. Both essential, but different.

Most importantly, I believe that to make the Divine Liturgy non-gender specific is an attack on my husband and his role as head. This in turn attacks my role. The stakes? The family! You have noticed that the family is under attack in society (and now the Church?!). In the Longer version of the St. Michael Prayer we find "when the Pastor has been struck the sheep may be scattered." In the domestic church, the home, when the head (DAD) is struck the sheep, my children, will be scattered. This is MOST serious!!! This is not really about **me** nor **my husband**. This is about my family. This is about my children, raising them to understand what GOD has planed for them. What good things HE has planned for them.

If we view this issue from the perspective of the FAMILY, and not the individual, we start to see the bigger impact. This is an attack on the children, to steal away their family....Depositing the Faith to the children is a most difficult task today. It takes a HEAD and a HEART, one flesh from two.

Well, I hope I made some sense. This is hard to explain in words, you really need to live it!

Blessed is our GOD!
corsair

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Dear Corsair,

May God bless you! It is encouraging to hear someone stand up for the TRUTH!

Alexandr

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Corsair, I also think that inclusive language forces me to compete with males as though their vocation is the only legitimate one. This is absurd! I hold the future in my arms everyday. You did a great job expressing a fundamental Catholic truth that is denied by the media and society.The family is the domestic church and I am proud to have a head and a heart.You cannot attack the head without affecting the entire family!

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Dear John K --

I think your comments are unfounded, and fly in the face of what many Orthodox and Evangelical Churches are experiencing. Do we wish to worship authentically what has been handed down, or are we in the business of creating new religions to entertain any group with a specific agenda just to try to grow our churches? Read this article published in Commonweal by Richard C. Leonard.

In case you wish to read the entire article here's the link Laudemont Ministries [laudemont.org]


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Why Inclusive Language Won't Succeed

Inclusive language in worship is supposed to correct what is thought to be male dominance in the church. Writing in Commonweal, Robert Woodward of Newsweek has questioned the existence of this hypothetical masculine domination. Citing Walter Ong's insightful book Fighting for Life, Woodward contends that the church at large has always been overwhelmingly feminine, the "Holy Mother Church." (And, we may add, the New Testament portrays the church as the bride of Christ.) In such a feminine environment an all-male clergy, as in the Catholic and Orthodox communities and many evangelical denominations, is a necessary balancing force which encourages men as well as women to be religious. Sociologists confirm that the best predictor of whether a child will maintain a religious commitment in adult life is not the faith of the mother � women are expected to be religious � but the faith of the father. Woodward comments, "if the father demonstrates that religion is not foreign to what a man is and does, the child � especially the male child � is much more likely to be religious upon reaching adulthood."

Because of their biological makeup, principally their more task-focused and less intuitive intellectual processes, men are unlikely to connect with a feminine-dominated or even gender-neutral symbolic environment, which is what a religion is. Masculine language in reference to God is part of the traditional symbol system of biblical faith, and it has allowed men to find meaning in that faith. Feminizing the language of worship virtually guarantees that men will fall by the wayside, except perhaps those whose sexual identity is confused.

Languages lie at the bedrock of cultures, and are inherently resistant to change. Bible translators know this, and make accommodations in order to translate the biblical idiom into phrases that will have equivalent significance in the target culture. But the current drive for gender-neutral language works in the opposite direction: it attempts to force linguistic change in order to foster cultural change. In this case, the translators are attempting to force a linguistic change on both the originating culture (the Bible and Christian tradition) and the target culture (North American society) at the same time. In reality, the movement for inclusive language is an attempt by an elitist segment to impose its values upon a larger community, and to take control not only of the actions of others but their thoughts as well.

If worship is to be truly inclusive, it cannot impose an elitist linguistic convention on a larger culture. A mandate for gender-neutral language in Christian worship would simply create a small, holier-than-thou cult with its own special lingo, while the rest of us hopeless Neanderthals fall off the edge of their world. And that's exactly what's happening to most of the historic North American denominations. Locked into the feminizing agenda, they are fast becoming a tiny minority of left-wing activists and their captive senior citizens who stick around just because of inertia. Anybody who is really looking for a meaningful set of religious symbols is going someplace else: to those churches which don't care about inclusive language, but do care whether or not people are included in the covenant with God through Jesus Christ.


Apparently our Hierarch's did not do their homework. Another reason to abandon this translation.


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Originally Posted by Jessup B.C. Deacon
Originally Posted by byzanTN
Ok, so what do we call it? RBCOP? BCOP, RBCOPIE, ?? Of course, it could be the True and Genuine Unreformed Byzantine Catholic Church Outside of Pittsburgh In Exile - TGUBCCOOPIE. This is all sounding kind of Slavic, you know. biggrin

I think you could call this new entity something like "The American Carpatho-Russian, Ukrainian, Slovak, Hungarian, Croatian, Serbian, Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of the U.S.A, and all the Seven Seas, Inc., a Pennsylvania Corporation". The short name would be . eek
ACRUSHCSOGCCUSAASSPC, LLC, LTD, Inc. What about the ACRUSHCSOGCCUSAASSPC, LLC, LTd, INC Youth Organization,
This would probably not fit on a t-shirt in that situation.
I'd say the BEBOPS is more effective.

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I love the Byzantine Rite!

Dear Wife-and-Mother:

I love the Byzantine Rite too! I sat numb in Church on Sunday. Realizing we will have to take our children from the Church they love. But, the danger in exposing them to the New Liturgy is real. It will be sad to leave, but my children's faith is more important. At times like these, let us contemplate the Holy Family and the Fight into Egypt. I think this will help us.

I guess we'll go to the Ukrainian Church. Are there any good Ukrainian Churches on the Southeast side of Pittsburgh?

Blessed is our GOD!
corsair

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I think Fr. Valerian is pastor of St. George's on California Ave.
He is very traditional, a married priest with a beautiful famuly.
They have sevral young families and lots of childern in the parish. I'm been trying to visit that parish for some time.

U_C

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On a different thread, I have posted the following observation:

The nuns of Mt St Macrina published the Festal Menaion in 1985--and our Lord is the "Lover of Mankind". They published the Pentecostarion in 1986--our Lord is the "Lover of Mankind". They published the Vespers book in 1987--our Lord is the "Lover of Mankind". The Matins book was published in 1989--our Lord has suddenly become the "Lover of Humankind". The Triodion was published in 1995--our Lord is the "Lover of Humankind".

Now as I view the revised DL, I see that the Tropars have also been nuetralized. Christ is not the "Lover of Mankind" and He is not even the "Lover of Humankind"......
It says that He "Loves us all".

Is this for real? I feel like I am in some kind of surreal inclusive language nightmare. Somebody wake me up! My conscience is damaged. No one will listen to this lowly "trouble maker".




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