www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Pascha or Easter?

Because we are weak.

Dr. Eric,
I would not deny that metaphores or similies are never used. The Bible isfull of them. The burning bush, the pillar of fire, the cloud, the star,

But this was for those who could not see God.

Jesus His son DID become man. It is understandable why you Eastern Christians love imagery.

The Problem is not that Christians use metaphores or similies. The Problem is when metaphores and similies are teh ONLY thing in one's faith. all icing and not cake.

But like the rays of the sun, we can become blinded by the light. So we see the beauty of ths sunshine on the mountains, the sunset, sunrise, etc.

But the sun is the source of all the beauty we see. Without it we wold be blind to God's creation.

The Son of God is the source of all beliefs. In the end NO metaphore or similie can replace him. The difference, Dr. Eric, is not in the expression of faith but in the object of our faith.

The Canaanites interloped with nature to assure an abundance of the crops. The Jews adopted several harvest festivals too. But there cam e a time when the temples of their faith had to be cleaned out of foreign idols and gods. The Israelites had to dump out their gods from their pockets. all the trinkets. All the interlopers with nature and treehugging. Rabbits too.

The Jews did and still do have an annual meal to remember the Passover. Every food item symbolized something of that great event in their faith. Jesus as the New passover is no different. he was the unblemished lamb whose legs were not broken. He wore a red cape like the scapegoat. There are many uses of nature, religious articles to help teach the faith. I don't doubt or deny this.

But I am writing about today, not the Evangelists what they wrote in the Gospels. People TODAY have put more faith in metaphores and similies than in Jesus the Lord.

My byzcath friend told me how down he was when hardly anyone showed up for their Passion Reading service. All the biblical passages dealing with Jesus' horrible and painful suffering were read to the people - or rather empty pews. his vicar was displeased. But many were shopping and getting their children's pictures taken with the Easter Bunny at the mall, buying candy, grocery shopping. Sure these things are fun BUT no one could spend an hour with the Lord? We love metaphores and similies. We are infatuated with them. Christians today are no different than the Apostles whose spirit was willing but bodies were weak.

Explain to me how metaphores and similies will lead people to the Lord when the Bible can't do it.

Jesus is Lord!
Eddie Hashinsky

That's the truth. A doubter, a denier, a traitor, and yet the Lord chose them all. Those apostles are the same ones who passed on the faith and whose testimonies became the basis of the Bible. If metaphors were good enough for them to understand and explain their faith, then it is good enough for me.

St. Mary Magdalene was the one to find the empty tomb and our tradition tells us that her eggs turned blood red when she found it. That is no metaphor, any more than the pillar of fire and the burning bush were a metaphor--those were true experiences which have been passed down to us by word and mouth about people's encounters with God. Again, if it is good enough for those in the Old Covenant like Moses and those in the New Covenant like St. Mary Magdalene, both found in the Bible, then it is good enough for me.

Christ is Risen!

Where in the Bible is that story?

What you say reflects the humanness of our humanity. But we are also instructed to no longer and act like children. we are to put away childish things and become adults - dump out our pockets of our idols. Smash the golden calves of our godless metaphores.

But you haven't explaind why it is more important to wait in line to have your chilren's pcitures taken with teh Easter Bunny but not even attend your own congragations Passioin Reading service. Does this Bible reading service get a lot of attendance? or are the hours painting Easter eggs more important?

Like I wrote before - ther is a difference between the expressioin of one's faith and the object of one's faith. The Bible (as in your passion reading service) leads to the object of the Christ faith. Eastern bunnies and colored eggs (and other fertility rites and tokens) lead to a self-centered expressio nof faith.

Your own congregations have the gift of the Holy Bible and it is ignored. What color Mary Magdalen's eggs were seem to ecclipse Holy Writ. Do you think this has become the case?

Is this Passion reading service on line?

Eddie H.

Dear Mr. Hashinsky,

Please consider that your questions are coming off as strange, ridiculing and baiting. This is a Christian Forum and we expect each member to post with charity. You have made a lot of accusations that are false.

Is this an accusation that Christians of the Byzantine Tradition are idolaters?

If yes, please provide examples from the teachings of our Church to support your accusation.

If no, please make clear that you are not making such an accusation.

If you are merely stating that many Christians are guilty of making idols of many things in this world (money, possessions, etc.) you might look around you. If you do you will find that many Christians are guiltily of the same thing.

Has anyone here claimed that the Church teaches what you accuse?

Has anyone here claimed that they believe that pictures with the Easter Bunny are more important than worshipping the Lord?

You are making a lot of false accusations here.

Easter bunnies aside (since no one has made any claim between the furry bunny and Christianity except maybe Hallmark) symbolism has always been important in Christianity.

Open your Bible and you will see an incredible number of symbols of this sort. Go to Matthew 21, Mark 11, Luke 19 and John 12 and read the account of the entry of Christ into Jerusalem (an event which we celebrated only a week ago). In just the first 11 verses of Matthew we see the symbolism of Christ riding the donkey (to fulfill the prophecy given in Is 62:11 and Zech 9:9). You will see the symbolism of the crowd spreading their cloaks and cut branches before the King. Accord to the logic you have espoused here all these people were making these tokens the center of their faith and forgetting about Christ. This is certainly possible but you fail to see that every bit of creation is a both a symbolic reminder and a concrete reminder of the Father, Son and Spirit.

In what way is the Bible ignored in our Churches? The undivided Catholic-Orthodox Church is the Church that gave the world the Bible. The Bible is read in almost every service and the bulk of the texts in our Divine Services are directly from the Bible. So on what basis do you accuse us of ignoring it?

Are you referring to the Matins of Holy Friday (commonly called the Twelve Gospels)?

As far as I know the full text is not online. It consists of Twelve Gospel readings focusing mostly on the Passion. Between each Gospel reading psalms and hymns are chanted, with the hymns essentially being a restatement of the Gospel in song form to drive home the message given in the Gospel readings.

The Gospel readings, of course, can be found in any Bible:

1.) Jn 13.31-18.1
2.) Jn 18.1-28
3.) Mt 26.57-75
4.) Jn 18.28-19.16
5.) Mt 27.3-32
6.) Mk 15.16-32
7.) Mt 27.33-54
8.) Lk 23.32-49
9.) Jn 19.25-37
10.) Mk 15.43-47
11.) Jn 19.38-42
12.) Mt 27.62-66

Ed, I must ask that if you wish to continue participating here that you show more charity. You seem very determined to twist what we believe and practice into something you can ridicule.

Most of us just spent 20-25 hours this past week gathered with our local parishes hearing the Gospels and other Scriptures proclaimed and then woven together in song. For you to suggest that we are forgetting about the Scriptures and what they mean is simply ludicrous.

Admin

Eddie,

I follow the Bible's exhortation to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16).

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17).

"what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2).

Because verses such as 2 Timothy 3:16�17 assure me that the exhortation in Luke, Romans, Thessalonians, Timothy, and elsewhere to follow the oral teachings of the apostles and their successors is Biblical, I feel confidant in doing so. "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work."

I worship Christ as the Word who was incarnated. The Bible assures me that this is the way of the Lord. "'But the Word of the Lord abides for ever.� That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

This very same Christ the Word is the one who suffered, died, and was buried, rising on the third day, fulfilling the scriptures and conquering death, throwing open the gates of heaven. Jesus was a Jew, formed in Judaism, and the fulfillment of the Jewish law. The Jews are commonly referred to as People of the Book. It is true that they honor the scriptures and familiarize themselves with them just as we do. It is also true that they have many oral traditions. Just try to find Hannukah in their current texts. It isn't there, and yet they still remember it, accepting the faith which was passed on to them by word of mouth. We too accept the faith passed on to us by word of mouth or by letter just as the Bible commands us to do. We are people of the Word--people of Christ. The Bible assures us that Christ died and rose again. What word we choose to call that blessed event, whether it is Easter or Pascha, is of no consequence when we realize that words, languages, and texts can change, but Christ Jesus, the Word incarnate, the Son of God, our Savior and Messiah, is eternal and unchanging.

This thread is becoming convoluted - not in itself unusual on the Forum, but the combination of convoluted and acrimonious is not entirely pleaaant.

My original point - expressed in the title of the thread - was not and is not to accuse any Christian of celebrating a pagan festival instead of Pascha, but simply to suggest that "Pascha" or "Pasch" is a preferable English translation of the same word, originally Hebrew (pesach) and eventually also Greek and Latin. I really have never met anyone who goes out to worship the Teutonic goddess Oestre, nor do I expect to meet such people.

As to the Easter Bunny (or the Paschal Hare, if one prefers that name - and there actually was a character here in Ireland of some prominence named, of all things, Paschal O'Hare!), I would think that this is a minor flight of fancy, pleasant but not worth worrying about - nobody suggests that the Easter Bunny is a part of our Christian observance of the Feast of Feasts. However, if anyone finds this Hare disturbing, you may send him off to the Home for Naughty Bunnies.

The accusation, or implication, that our worship of God, and above all our Paschaltide worship, which brings us deeper into the Paschal Mystery, is somehow un-Biblical is indeed, as the Administrator has pointed out, sheer nonsense. Not only are the divine services of Holy Week filled with Bible lessons, and not only are the poetic texts that we chant filled with Biblical quotes and allusions, but in a great many places pious people will read through the Four Gospels during Holy Week (sometimes on the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, and sometimes in a night vigil from Good Friday to Holy Saturday) and just before the midnight Paschal celebration it is a normal practice to read out the entire book of the Acts of the Apostles. So let's not be absurd, especially during Bright Week.

Finally, I request a particular observance of courtesy which is no more than appropriate on a Forum which mainly serves Catholics/Orthodox, or Orthodox Catholics: our priests do not particularly enjoy being referred to as if we were Protestant ministers. I am not "Reverend Keleher"; a priest is correctly styled "Father", to which we sometimes add whatever ecclesiastical honorific he may have received. For Christians, the Christian name is more important than the surname, since the Christian name is given by God in Holy Baptism (the same applies, mutatis mutandis, to the monastic name or sometimes the ordination name).

The observation of this and other forms of courtesy is always appropriate - as either Belloc or Chesterton wrote: the grace of God is in courtesy. But this is particularly true in Internet communications, since the Internet does not usually enable us to see the person with whom we are in touch, so as to "read" his facial expression, nor does the Internet usually enable us to hear his voice, so as to perceive the tone in which he is saying this or that. As a result, it can easily happen that something which was not intended to be in the least offensive can be read in a different way.

I may be mistaken, but I have the impression that Ed Hash is a biblical fundamentalist and a Protestant who is somewhat aggressively seeking to propagate this frame of mind. Some people enjoy a conversation with a Biblical fundamentalist, and some people do not. If we believe - and I do - in the principle of freedom of religion, we must acknowledge that Ed has a perfect right to be a biblical fundamentalist and a Protestant, and to speak and write to promote that particular outlook. But so do the rest of us!

Biblical fundamentalism turns up in the Christian East infrequently; one finds it as a result of Protestant proselytism. Most of us are accustomed to read the Bible, and use the Bible in worship, in the context of our liturgical tradition and above all our patristic tradition. As Deuteronomy teaches us: "ask thy father and he will tell thee; thine elders, and they will instruct thee".

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Fr. Serge
[or, if someone wants to be rather more formal than is usual in these informal discussions: Father Archimandrite Serge. If I feel like being formal, the most formal way of signing myself is "+ serge" - the cross indicates a prelate and the lower-case name indicates a minor prelate! But that belongs in the category of trivial pursuits!)

Sorry if what I wrote offended.

I was referring to how the Easter Bunny has consumed most of our energies not necessarily byzcaths. what started it was the debate over the term Easter/ishtar. Father Serge stated on theory, then it was challenged, then I simply entered the frey and pointed out that the challenger was also stating theories - even the words used was "maybe" adn other hypotheticals.

My byzcath friend was the one who lamented over the empty church for teh Passion Reading Service or Matins as it is known. Thta the mall is packed for the Easter Bunny pictures is a reflection of contemporary pagan American culture, NOT byzcath or orthodox believers. On other threads I pointed out how your worship service is soaked with the WOrd of God/Holy Writ. and how even the dedication of a new church is connected to the creation theme of Genesis and the Tabernacle in Exodus.

I don't consider byzcaths as idol worshippers. I am familiar with the teaching. and symbolism IS used - like all Christians use a wedding ban. and that the woman always stands on the left at a wedding is from the Mass. Symbols DO help and i would be hard pressed to find anyone really worshipping a piece of wood - unless you bring up environmentalists who sometimes confuse the Creator with the created.

Sorry Father Serge. I will call you how you are supposed to be called. no prolbem there. No disrespect was intended. Consider me a fool.

I have heard several good sermons and writing s about how Santa Claus has become teh focus of many Christians. many of them from Catholic priests.Christians, not necessarily Christianity, has become ADD afflicted in this way. So many distractions from Jesus the Lord. one priest was reassigned after he preached against Santa Claus because of hte people's outrage. I am not suggesting or claiming that various churches teach Santa Claus over JEsus Christ and his birth. But all Christians can become like the Israelites in the Wilderness at times. Moses had his hands full! No different than today.

Father Serge, you bring up the Bible in reading and worship. How is this promoted? I am thinking here of Jesus' words on letting one set his lampstand not under a bushel basket.

what I ams saying is this--- if you have alight, and it has been lit for the centuries you claim; then why is it not shining? I ask this because of the problems introduced by the accomodation of inclusive language in your worship and the changing of Scripture for other purposes. why would your own church shepherds (or bishops) do that to you?? How do YOU interpret their actions?

Father Serge, I am sorry if I sounded discourteous. Even teh israelites had to empty their pockets at times of their idols rather than worship the one true God. Foreign gods had to be thrown out of the Temple in Jerusalem at times. but no sooner the Israelites witnessed the miracle of the Red Sea crossing, the began to whine and complain. They forgot who led them out of Egypt. Even Aaron helped make the golden calf! Jesus' own apostles slept and weren't with him in the Garden.not even for one hour! This is not to say that Judaism was discredited or that the institution of the Lord's Apostleship was discredited. Those who were Israelites or thos who were Apostles were only discrediting themselves. I haven't heard any news stories about the Cath church or orthodox Churches excommunicating its members. Members do a pretty good job in excommuicating themselves. THIS is what i am trying to say.

Eddie

To return to the lighter side: what is a "wedding ban"? Is it, for example, the rule against doing weddings during Lent?

Fr. Serge

For byzcaths, it is mandatory celibacy. I know. Bad spelling and bad humor. But i just had to. If I wrote wedding band it would mean my cousins awful hard rock group. But that would not be what i meant either.

I meant wedding "bann" of course.

Eddie

Not so! The Byzantine Catholic church has the full power to ordain married men and has started doing so. Prayers for increased courage to reclaim what is already ours!

And I am the product of a licit EC married priestly family!!

Most of the priests I know are married. Our new pastor is unmarried, but he is so nice and well-loved by everyone. Marriage isn't for everyone.

Alex

Ok. ok. Just off-tilt humor there. Not meant to send this thread spiraling into another scathing skid. I blame this all one Father Serge with his concern for wascally wabbits and wedding bans. Stop feeding those wabbits Irish whifkey. what brought this up anyway?

I should note fundamentalist Christian is off-tilt too - just for the record. i do not believe in a literalist interpretation of Genesis. Mayb I suggest metaphores and similies instead? Aaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!! I shot myself in the foot!!!

you all are such nice people.

Eddie

"Courage" to "re"claim what is "already" yours? Is that like not having to ask permission to unlock your car door in the parking lot and drive on? Where does courage come in? Why necessary? Would there be muggers in the back seat? What sort of neighborhod do you live in thta you have to havecourage to do what is already yours? Are you living in fear of the mob bosses and their hit men?

Eddie H.

BTW Wedding Bans

These are required over here - the couple have to give notice that they intend to get married on a specific date and the bans are posted at the Registry Office and also read in most Churches , for 3 consecutive weeks.

Anyone who knows a just impediment is supposed to go and inform the Registrar/ Priest.

Dear Eddie,

Some of our bishops are in fear of those bosses, as you said . . .

Alex