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Dear Elijahmaria,
I posted the following under the heading of 'Bishop Kallistos Ware: Today, I had the blessing of hearing a lecture by Bishop Kallistos Ware. He was great! He spoke of the importance of confession, and many other topics. At the end of one segment someone asked him about unity. The man said that he had ten grandchildren, and many belonged to other denominations, and that one was even a Lutheran minister.
Bishop Kallistos continuously emphasized that we must respect the faith of others. We must never proslytize or bully others into converting. He said that just as we Orthodox have been given gifts, or blessings, ( I don't recall the exact words), other have their gifts too, and we must admire and respect them.
He said that we are close to uniting with the other Eastern Churches. He then said, that talks will be proceeding with the RCC shortly, and that as Orthodox Christians we must pray fervently for unity. That the only hindrance towards intercommunion between the Orthodox and Catholic faith, is establishing the exact status of the Pope of Rome.
I recall about a week ago, discussing intercommunion with a speaker that had attended the meeting between the Pope and the Patriarch at Constantinople. I asked him about intercommunion, and he said that everything is solvable, as did Bishop Kallistos about the Filioque. I recall Bishop Kallistos saying that the problems seems to be samantics.
The hindrance is the status of the Pope. If his status is not established, with whom will the problems be solved.
God Bless,
Zenovia Dear God in Heaven! Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! May we, your Children on Earth, experience the unity that You share! No division, no animosity, no hatred; may we find the words to express the Unity of Your Body in Heaven! We should all devote this week to prayer, that we can experience in the unity of time the unity of the Body of Christ in Heaven, with one soul, one Body in union with Its Head, one Body in union with Its Soul which is Christ! We have divided your Body as the centurians did. Pray for us as you did for them!
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From V. Lossky's Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, pp 75-76:
...Creation is an act of the will of God which makes a new subject outside the divine being, ex nihilo; to the sphere of God's manifestation comes into being [sic]. As for the manifestation itself, it is eternal, for it is the glory of God. [Saint] Philaret of Moscow expresses this doctrine of the eastern Church in a Christmas sermon, in which he speaks of the angel�s hymn �Glory to God in the highest�: God, he says, has from all eternity enjoyed the sublimity of his glory�.His glory is the revelation, the manifestation, the reflection, the garment of His inner perfection.
God reveals Himself to Himself from all eternity by the eternal generation of His consubstantial Son, and by the eternal procession of His consubstantial Spirit; and thus the unity, within the Holy Spirit shines forth imperishable and unchangeable in its essential glory.
In this glory, uniquely proper to Himself, God dwells in perfect felicity above all glory, without having need of any witnesses, without admitting of any division.
But as in His mercy and His infinite love He desires to communicate His blessedness, to create for Himself beings capable of sharing in the Joyfulness of his glory�
It is in creatures�beings created from nothing by the divine will, limited and subject to change�that the infinite and eternal energies abide, making the greatness to shine forth in all things, and appearing beyond all things as the divine light which the created world cannot contain. For those who are following this part of the topic, I want to say also that Orthodoxy teaches, with important implicatins for a fuller understanding of essence and energies, that the generative and processive divine actions are part of the essence, while creating is an act of the divine will. It is extremely important to note that the energies shine through creation. The energies are not the "stuff" of creation itself. Creation comes from nothing. This is not the end of the logos by any means but it is a beginning, at least, for some kind of intellectual comprehehsion of what has been revealed through Orthodoxy over the centuries. Mary
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It is extremely important to note that the energies shine through creation. The energies are not the "stuff" of creation itself. Creation comes from nothing. I would repeat that your point is extremely important. I think the converse of your statement must also be true, that in God the energies must be Him! "When" ["when" implies time, which is part of creation, so I use it eternally] creation was not, there was only God--Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or to say this in another way, within God in whom there is no division, His operations do not "cause" division.
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Dear God in Heaven! Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! May we, your Children on Earth, experience the unity that You share! No division, no animosity, no hatred; may we find the words to express the Unity of Your Body in Heaven!
We should all devote this week to prayer, that we can experience in the unity of time the unity of the Body of Christ in Heaven, with one soul, one Body in union with Its Head, one Body in union with Its Soul which is Christ!
We have divided your Body as the centurians did. Pray for us as you did for them! Amen!
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Dear God in Heaven! Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! May we, your Children on Earth, experience the unity that You share! No division, no animosity, no hatred; may we find the words to express the Unity of Your Body in Heaven!
We should all devote this week to prayer, that we can experience in the unity of time the unity of the Body of Christ in Heaven, with one soul, one Body in union with Its Head, one Body in union with Its Soul which is Christ! Dear Mary, WOW!.... The above is absolutely beautiful! May God bless you and bless us all to heed these words! With love in Christ, Alice
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Dear God in Heaven! Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! May we, your Children on Earth, experience the unity that You share! No division, no animosity, no hatred; may we find the words to express the Unity of Your Body in Heaven!
We should all devote this week to prayer, that we can experience in the unity of time the unity of the Body of Christ in Heaven, with one soul, one Body in union with Its Head, one Body in union with Its Soul which is Christ! Dear Mary, WOW!.... The above is absolutely beautiful! May God bless you and bless us all to heed these words! With love in Christ, Alice Dear Alice, Blessings of Great and Holy Week to you and your family. Christ's peace! I wish I could lay claim to that sweet prayer!!...But your praise belongs to our own dear Ghosty!! Who is one of the most gentle souls I've ever met. I've been meaning to say that for a while and this is as good an opportunity as any. Mary
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As I was reviewing the the Pope's Regensburg lecture, this caught my eye: As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which - as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated - unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, "transcends" knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul - "λογικη λατρεία", worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1)
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The Council of Florence was in "session" (or at least discussions were being held during Holy Week for the Latins for that year). This year, the Churches celebrate Holy Week together--thanks be to God! Chapter VI: UNION: THE PROCESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, from Fr. Gill's book, the Counicil of Florence, may be a good read during this time. I have only skimmed it, but I intend to spend more time on it tonight. http://web.archive.org/web/20050213001152/praiseofglory.com/gillunion.htm
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Here is a passage from Gregory of Nyssa which calls into question the distinction between essence and energies which has been a great part of the subject of this thread. I think that He there [Jn.17.22] calls the Holy Spirit 'glory,' (that Spirit) which He gave to the disciples through His breathing on (them). For there is no other way for those who are divided from one another to be made one if not conjoined by the oneness of the Spirit ... [Rom 8:9]. But the Spirit is the glory, as He says elsewhere to the Father, 'Glorify me with the glory which I had from the beginning beside You before the world was'. For God the Logos, having before the world the glory of the Father, since in the last days He became flesh, it was necessary for the flesh, through compenetration by the Word, to become that which the Word is. (20) But this happens from the taking of that which before the world the Word had. But this was the Holy Spirit, for there was nothing else before the ages except Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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This may be a little off the topic but does anyone know about the series of Orthodox Church History that was being published by St Vladimir's Press. Are the other volumes published yet?
Stephanos I
I have two volumes and have been anticipating the others.
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To Apotheoun;
you are exactly correct that it is not a join declaration but as you said a somewhat murky clarification by the Western Church.
In the beginning of the article the Western Church even roudaboutly admits that the ' filioque' was something added into western theology by a Spanish king and later Charlemagne.
Toward the end of the article they assert that the creed of 325 AD is the correct one.
In the end the way I see it is ; the Western Churche's argument comes down to something like" well we have been doing this for so long and now it is part of our theology, then we will just keep it."
God bless you all. And I think that this is just the problem. It is the same problem with Vatican I, with indulgences, and with other western innovations. They've been a part of the tradition so long, and the authority of the western Church is so dependent on them, that they can't renounce any of them without introducing chaos among the faithful. They have backed themselves into a corner. This is the biggest obstacle to our ecumenical relations in my opinion. The steps that Rome would need to take to reunite with the Orthodox would be the very steps that would would western Catholic Christians the leeway to dissent even more and introduce more chaos. Imagine what would happen if the Pope came out and said that Vatican I was a mistake and that the Pope is not infallible. All of the dissenting Catholics would throw a party. This is a real problem. I realize that Pope Benedict XVI is in a very stressful and difficult position. I pray for him regularly and I admire him much. I just don't know how the Roman Church will work through this, but if gets the western faithful in line and instills discipline into the Church, that will make things better. Joe Yeah, the renounce Papal infalability and I then I would have to become a Sedavacantist.
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Here is a passage from Gregory of Nyssa which calls into question the distinction between essence and energies which has been a great part of the subject of this thread. I think that He there [Jn.17.22] calls the Holy Spirit 'glory,' (that Spirit) which He gave to the disciples through His breathing on (them). For there is no other way for those who are divided from one another to be made one if not conjoined by the oneness of the Spirit ... [Rom 8:9]. But the Spirit is the glory, as He says elsewhere to the Father, 'Glorify me with the glory which I had from the beginning beside You before the world was'. For God the Logos, having before the world the glory of the Father, since in the last days He became flesh, it was necessary for the flesh, through compenetration by the Word, to become that which the Word is. (20) But this happens from the taking of that which before the world the Word had. But this was the Holy Spirit, for there was nothing else before the ages except Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Could you expand on this a bit, Im. It does not seem to have popped out as an ah-ha! moment here. I was going to offer comments of my own, but I realize that the thought to post was your's, so the thoughts in your head about the quote are what I am really looking for. Mary
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What struck me about this quotation is that I would expect that Gregory would not say, "there was nothing else before the ages except Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," if there are uncreated (ie, eternal) energies.
I take it that ""before" the ages," means ""before" time" ie, "before creation." Here Gregory is only considering God as He existed before creation and there is no mention of these "uncreated" energies. This leads me to think that for one of the Capadocian Fathers, there is not this energies/essence distinction apart from the created order.
As to the larger question for which this quotation is a springboard for Fr. Quay to address the filioque, I have read the chapter only once, and it will require at least three readings (for me) to grasp it.
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What struck me about this quotation is that I would expect that Gregory would not say, "there was nothing else before the ages except Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," if there are uncreated (ie, eternal) energies.
I take it that ""before" the ages," means ""before" time" ie, "before creation." Here Gregory is only considering God as He existed before creation and there is no mention of these "uncreated" energies. This leads me to think that for one of the Capadocian Fathers, there is not this energies/essence distinction apart from the created order.
As to the larger question for which this quotation is a springboard for Fr. Quay to address the filioque, I have read the chapter only once, and it will require at least three readings (for me) to grasp it. He would not need to add that there are also uncreated energies, because the uncreated energies are God. God is love, God is truth, God is peace, etc. Has God ever been without love? Has God ever been without truth? Has God ever been without peace? Yet, none of these things are God in God's essence. They are the uncreated energies of God.
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He would not need to add that there are also uncreated energies, because the uncreated energies are God. God is love, God is truth, God is peace, etc. Has God ever been without love? Has God ever been without truth? Has God ever been without peace? Yet, none of these things are God in God's essence. They are the uncreated energies of God. I see what you mean here or are trying to say. We are back to this idea that the energies "flow" out from God through all eternity. There's a bit of a delicate use of the language here that I want to point out to you first because I believe it is important to the larger discussion. If, as you say, and I believe you can say it accurately by analogy, that God is love, truth, glory, peace, etc. then that is all we can say. We cannot say that he has these things, as in "being with or without." God's glory is not a set of possessed characteristics that he can be with or without. God can only BE. The divine nature is the only nature that simply IS, the great I AM. So we need to be careful of the way we express God in plain words. That is my only point here. Then moving on, I am going to offer a quote from Vladimir Lossky that upon close reading you will see that not all Orthodox theologians insist that the divine energies, flow out from all eternity. That changes the heart of the discussion, at least as it was laid out earlier. This is also why, in his discussion of Being in Communion, Metropolitan John, focuses on the communion of the Trinity before all ages, rather than the essence and the energies...Mary From V. Lossky's Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, pp 75-76:
...Creation is an act of the will of God which makes a new subject outside the divine being, ex nihilo; to the sphere of God's manifestation comes into being [sic]. As for the manifestation itself, it is eternal, for it is the glory of God. [Saint] Philaret of Moscow expresses this doctrine of the eastern Church in a Christmas sermon, in which he speaks of the angel�s hymn �Glory to God in the highest�: God, he says, has from all eternity enjoyed the sublimity of his glory�.His glory is the revelation, the manifestation, the reflection, the garment of His inner perfection.
God reveals Himself to Himself from all eternity by the eternal generation of His consubstantial Son, and by the eternal procession of His consubstantial Spirit; and thus the unity, within the Holy Spirit shines forth imperishable and unchangeable in its essential glory.
In this glory, uniquely proper to Himself, God dwells in perfect felicity above all glory, without having need of any witnesses, without admitting of any division.
But as in His mercy and His infinite love He desires to communicate His blessedness, to create for Himself beings capable of sharing in the Joyfulness of his glory�
It is in creatures�beings created from nothing by the divine will, limited and subject to change�that the infinite and eternal energies abide, making the greatness to shine forth in all things, and appearing beyond all things as the divine light which the created world cannot contain.
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