www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Joint Declaration - JPII and Bartholomew I about the Filioque?

It seems to me that there is some equivocation there and it seems unsatisfactory and not what Gregory is saying.

In the passage I quoted above from St. Gregory, he maintains that the Holy Spirit, as Person, is the Glory of the Father and the Son. Here is Gregory himself:

Dear Im,

This makes it so much more obvious.

The danger is that when we reify, or commodify, essence and energies, energies in particular, making of energies a "thing" that is possessed by God, we loose all the rest of the teaching concerning our understanding of the divine nature, and the three persons of the Trinity, as it has been handed down to us by the Fathers.

One can press a good thing too far so that it becomes blinding rather than illuminating.

Mary

lm,

Nothing in the quotations you have given above indicates that the Holy Spirit as hypostasis is the glory of the Father and the Son. In fact, the glory of God is a common energy of the three divine hypostaseis, and so it cannot be made into the person of the Holy Spirit without confusing the three divine persons and falling into a form of Sabellian Modalism.

Mary,

The real distinction between essence and energy in God does not lead the reifying the energies, because the energies subsist in the triad of divine persons enhypostatically. In other words, the energies are not themselves hypostaseis, because that would make God multi-hypostatic instead of tri-hypostatic. As Dr. Eric Perl said in his essay on St. Gregory Palamas' teaching:


God bless,
Todd

P.S. - Due to my ongoing illness, and the neuro-muscular difficulties resulting from it, I do not intend -- at the present moment -- to become embroiled in a long discussion, which would only sap my limited physical energy. Nevertheless, I will monitor this thread from time to time, and when I have the energy I will post responses in order to clarify the errors in connection with Palamas' teaching espoused by other posters involved in this discussion.

P.P.S. - Mary, you need to read Palamas' essay "Dialogue Between an Orthodox and a Barlaamite," because in that text he clearly expresses the idea that the term "Spirit" in connection with God refers both to the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit, and at times to the divine energies, which are the uncreated charismata of the Spirit.

Dear Todd,

I was not speaking generically in my comments. I was addressing some very misleading language on the part of another poster. It is clear to me that many who would speak of the teaching of St. Gregory do so in rather loose terms that ignore many other teachings that are condign and coextensive with the teaching on energies.

Thank you for your comments above. I would like to highlight words taken from the quote you offered above:


I take this author to mean precisely what he says...'they [Energies] are the powers such as Being and Life which inform creatures.'

They[Energies]are powers which inform creatures. He does not say that they are powers which "inform the Trinity before all ages." Energies do not flow out from the Trinity through eternity. They may be the Trinity through all eternity, but when they flow out, they flow out to "inform creatures."

I think this is a crucial distinction and it has been my arguing point throughout the main part of this conversation to date. If we can ever agree on this then I think we might move on the next step.

Mary

In order to understand the Eastern Church's doctrine of creation and grace one must make a real distinction -- without a separation -- between the divine essence and the divine energies, because in this way one is able, with Palamas and Pseudo-Dionysios, to say that God, who is energetically the being of creatures ". . . is 'being and not being, everywhere and nowhere, many-named and unnameable, ever-moved and unmoved, and simply, all things and none of them all.'" [Dr. Eric Perl, St. Gregory Palamas and the Metaphysics of Creation, Dionysius (Volume XIV, December 1990), page 115] Thus, as Dr. Perl explains, the Eastern doctrinal tradition (flowing from Pseudo-Dionysios, St. Maximos, etc., to St. Palamas) is able to allow for an ontological participation in God through the uncreated energies, while the Thomistic position reduces salvation to an intentional (volitional) participation in God of an autonomous creation that only mirrors the divine being through a created similtude.

As far as the energies are concerned, they are eternal and uncreated, because they are the energies of the eternal and uncreated God. They are in God prior to creation, and are made manifest through it, but since Palamas (in agreement with the other Eastern Fathers) holds that God is more than His essence, His energies must flow out from the three divine persons eternally. God's goodness, life, glory, etc., have always been super-abundant, which means that God has always exceeded His essence.

God bless,
Todd

It certainly is your right to ignore all of the texts that have been offered here that have not contradicted the superabundance of God, but have added to our understanding of the Holy Spirit as the glory of God, and placed the actual action of the energies where it belongs....in time.

Those quotes include the text from Lossky.

Mary

Todd,

Could you provide some textual support for that statement? I don't think it's right. But take your time, there is certainly no hurry.

May you be blessed with good health.

lm

Due to my illness, I have not been able to finish my transcription of Dr. Perl's essay, which gives the information you are requesting. I have only one part of the essay on my website at the moment, but sadly I was unable to add the footnotes, so it would not be of assistance to you at this point.

Nevertheless, here is the link to the second part of his paper:

St. Gregory Palamas and the Metaphysics of Creation [geocities.com]

Mary,

One other thing, the energies flow out of God eternally, but this simply concerns the fact that God is more than His essence, and so it does not mean that the energies flow out into a "thing." The linguistic expression in connection with this mystery (like all linguistic expressions) cannot fully convey the divine reality.

God bless,
Todd

There are many ways in which our words fail. That is why we keep talking to one another over time, and reminding one another that our words fail.

Mary

Dear Todd,

I know that some have noticed that when I object to something or the way something has been expressed from within the Orthodox tradition, I always use Orthodox sources for my substantiating texts. That should be clear, at least in this discussion.

So I would hope that you are going to provide a response to Im's question from reliably and notably authentic students and teachers of St. Thomas from within the Dominican tradition, where every effort has been made to remain true to St. Thomas and remove accretions from other scholastics that arose in competition with St. Thomas's work on ens and esse, existance and being, in all of its complexity.

It is folly to just borrow here and there from the total corpus of his works. His definitions are too multi-layered for any kind of superficial treatment. So I trust that you will not present such superficial treatments as can be found among Orthodox scholars who tend not to read Thomas, but to read into Thomas and work from secondary sources and other scholastic sources that often are poor representations.

It is only fair and honest, academically speaking, to present from within the authentic Thomists tradition. Much good work in that regard has been produced in the latter part of the last century, and the early part of this one.

Mary

Actually, Gregory of Nyssa does speak of the energies of God. In his Homily VI on the Beatitudes, he states, "He who by nature is invisible becomes visible through his energies, appearing in what is around him."

Ryan

Yes, but that quote you cited doesn't reference any kind of uncreated, eternal energy. In fact, it seems to imply the opposite in certain respects. I think Im's point is that St. Gregory doesn't seem to suggest a distinct eternal aspect of God called Energy.

Peace and God bless!

Dear Friends,

Let's also remember that Gregory of Nyssa isn't a primary Father in the East - in fact, he is sometimes referred to only as "Blessed Gregory of Nyssa."

Alex