www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News MP's REACTION TO PATRIARCHS LUBOMIR's AND FILARET's meeting

On the MP website, orthodox.org.ua, they critisize the actions of Patriarch Lubomir.
First of all, THEY ARE NOT A REAL UKRAINIAN CHURCH. Filaret wanted a Ukrainian church even when he was the right hand man of ALEXEI II. So do we. The MP still works its soviet-like propoganda. What r we to do? Ignore obviously, but we somehow have to unite the UGCC, UAOC,UOC-KP, UOC-USA, and UOC-CAN in order for the Ukrainains to get rid of the MP in Ukraine.
WHAT DO U GUYS THINK?

The vast majority of Orthodox in the Zakarpatska Oblast belong to the UOC-MP and seem to be quite satisfied with that situation. The UOC-KP and UAOC have almost no support in Zakarpatska Oblast whatsoever.

UOC-MP out of Ukraine? Unlikely.

(And wasn't "Patriarch" Filaret the one who in L'viv in 1988/89 said he would "chase the uniats out of St. George's Cathedral like dogs"?)

Lemko Rusyn,

Even if there is truth to that quote, he was still under the MP and if he were to say "Let them stay and worship for the Uniates are ok blah blah" then that wouldn't be good for him and his posistion in the church.

People frequently say things to keep face even though they keep the truth or the right thing in their hearts. For example "I did not have sexual relations with tht woman, Ms. Lewinsky"

I trust +Filaret much more than I do Alexiy (Drozhdov or w/e) or Met. Vladimir of Kyiv. But thats just me.

-uc

FILARET, if he said those things,he had to, to keep his Job. He wanted an independent Ukrainain Church and Moscow Spit on him.No matter how he is politically now, he has my respect. He is a good organizer. Look at how many communities he has put together. Unite the UAOC UOC KP AND UGCC and we are huge!
Mix in the Ukrainain churches under MP, WOW

Lets pray for an Independent Ukrainain Church

Something grabbed my interest. We all know that "Filaret" was excommunicted by Moscow (and some here may deny the validity of that action), yet the Patriarch's decision was backed up by the heads of all the Local Churches, even that of Constantinople (despite the rivalry between the two cities). I would not trust "Filaret" who had made clear in the early 90's that he wanted to form alternative Orthodox Churchs (not to mention his interference into Bulgarian affairs during its tragic schism).

Anton

Perhaps Moscow's plans to create a giant metropolia in Western Europe, and general moves towards consolidation, will force the Ukrainian jurisdictions, Old Calendar Greek jurisdictions and other highly divided national/confessional groups to rethink and seek to heal continually perpetuated division. I particularly hope that traditionalists will stop fighting and combine against a KGB trained 'Big Brother' and Orwellian 'Super Church'.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

The MPs are already losing the game and that's why they get all upset like spoilt kids and start writing articles trying to defend their position, but with little or maybe no effect what so ever.
When the UGCC came out of the catacombs, the MPs already knew that they lost the game. Now with a UGCC Patriarchal Sobor being constructed and that supports cultural/social groups such as CYM and Plast and having a church leader who is a Studite who gets along with the UOC-KP and the UAOC, there's really not much the MPs can do but sit back and watch as they slowly but surely lose control of Ukraine and this is nothing else but the simple truth.
Lauro

Dear Lauro:

Very well spoken. Don't forget, though, His Beatitude Lubomyr is also a "Plastun" himself. (not to mention a meber of the greatest Plast fraternity of them all - Chervona Kalyna).

Yours,

kl

According to the MP, the 1946 psuedo-Sobor is still in effect. So according to the MP, the UGCC is part of the MP. If that is the case, maybe the MP will excommunicate us.

Regardless of the checkered past of Filaret, he represents a much better opportunity for Ukrainian ecclesial unity. The other option (the MP) is domination and submission, not unity and communion. Alexei's words, style and techniques have changed not a bit since his Soviet era prominence. After all, what can be expected from a former KGB agent and member of the Soviet propaganda ministry? Nothing but the party line, which we continue to see on a daily basis. It's all really quite predictable with regard to the MP response.

Kyiv is the maternal home of all churches of the Kyivan tradition, including Moscow. The MP obviously understands this and will make this a paramount turf battle.

Dear Friends,

An opinion by someone who was there!

Source: www.orthodox.org.ua [orthodox.org.ua]

Greek Catholic Cardinal Comments On Communicating With Orthodox (UOC-KP)

LVIV, UKRAINE, May 07, 03 (RISU.org.ua) –

“The Vatican has not prohibited my communication with hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate [UOC-KP] and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church,” said Cardinal Lubomyr Husar, head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC). The cardinal gave an interview to RISU regarding these so-called “non-canonical” Orthodox churches on 5 May 2003. This was in response to a recent letter of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) commenting on the cardinal's recent joint prayer with Patriarch Filaret, head of the UOC-KP.

On 1 May 2003, the UOC-MP released a statement entitled “Will Cardinal Husar Be Excommunicated from the Catholic Church for Communicating with Patriarch Filaret, excommunicated from the Orthodox Church?” This statement referred to the meeting of Cardinal Husar and Patriarch Filaret when they venerated the copy of the Shroud of Turin and held an ecumenical prayer service in Kyiv. This eventually occurred on 3 May 2003.

The UOC-MP asserted that Cardinal Husar is a subject of the Catholic Church and accused him of ignoring the Vatican's position on communication with persons that have been excommunicated by their own churches.

In response, Cardinal Husar commented on the situation. “At the meeting of the joint theological commission in Balamand, representatives of the Roman Catholic Church decided to communicate exclusively with canonical churches,” said Cardinal Husar.

“The UOC-KP and the UAOC are not considered canonical, and representatives of the Vatican don't communicate with them. However, during his visit to Ukraine in June 2001, Pope John Paul II participated in the meeting of the Ukrainian Council of Churches, at which Patriarch Filaret, head of the UOC-KP, and Patriarch Mefodii, head of the UAOC, were also present. Considering the interreligious situation in Ukraine, Cardinal Kasper and Bishop Cassidy, representatives of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, also advised me to act as we find it proper under these particular circumstances,” stressed Cardinal Husar.

“We are not doing big politics and should treat each other with tolerance. The Vatican has not prohibited my communication with the UOC-KP and UAOC hierarchs. I understand the UOC-MP representatives who insist that laws should be obeyed, but we are human beings and should behave like humans considering the reality we live in,” said Cardinal Husar.

It should be reminded that while perhaps the Roman Catholic delegation agreed to only dialogue with "canonical" churches (I would need to see a joint resolution to this effect), the Greek Catholic and other Eastern Catholic Churches were neither represented nor agreed to any such provisions of the Balamand conference. It is ridiculous to agree to something like that.

"Canonical" is a somewhat relative term amongst the various Orthodox churches which lack no strong exterior primacy. The Bulgarian Church was "non-canonical" for some time in the eyes of Constantinople. The Estonian Church was also considered "non-canonical" by the MP even causing a temporary excommunication of the Ecumenical Patriarch by removing him from the Diptychs.

The Pope himself has taken "non-canonical" hierarchs into audience.

We must speak for ourselves, not allow Roman cardinals to represent us in persona Ruthenorum. It is clear that Patriarch Lubomyr has the authority and even the mission to dialogue with other Orthodox jurisdictions in the interest of Christian charity, evangelism and unity.

The reaction of Moscow is really ironic, they felt worried and have just reminded Artchbishop Lubomyr about the Vatican's directives related to the Ecumenical prayers with other Churches. I would say it was legitimate to complain if they had said "we are offended because we wanted the Vatican and the UGCC to recognize us as the real Orthodox Church" but they said "You shouldn't do this because the Vatican says it's wrong". This last statement can be seen as hypocricy, and a Patriarchate of the Orthodox Church should not degradate itself with this attitude.

About the contacts of Catholic prelates with non-canonical Churches, the line between Canonical and non-canonical is still small. The Macedonian Orthodox Church, for example, has excellent relations with the Greek catholic community, and wiyth the Roman, and concelebrations and intercommunion exist there, and none of the Orthodox Patriarchs has complained.

None have complained because the Macedonian Orthodox Church is a) not in communion with anyone b) considered schismatic and c) not considered Orthodox, especially after it tried to join with Rome.

anastasios

Where did you get that pic, ukrpat?

I'd like to see more if they exist.

anastasios

How are the Macedonians not Orthodox? They profess the seven ecumenical councils. They have some members of their hierarchy from Bulgarian or Serbian churches, which are "canonical".

I have to disagree that having dialogue with Rome makes one "not Orthodox". That sounds a bit polemical. The history of the Bulgarian, Estonian, even the OCA is smattered with episodes of non-recognition when these churches first approached autocephaly.

It is ironic that a church which was originally formed by autocephaly from the Metropolitan of Kyiv would say such things. And it's a double bur in the saddle for Moscow, because they (a) see the Greek Catholics with a more high profile and public presence and (b) seeing the Greek Catholics or anyone else legitimizing the KP.

To most if not all Catholics the response of the MP is being seen as completely predictable and hypocritical. Alexei is starting more and more to be seen as a sort of poster child of the past collusion between the MP and the Soviet regime.

The pictures of the joint procession in Kyiv with Patriarchs Lubomyr and Filaret can be seen at http://www.kyivpatriarchalsobor.org/ukr/news/