www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commentary On The DL

I don't think it's a problem because in fact it is a request of those then present and then praying that they pray "in peace."

In the Creed, however, the reference to salvation of men is without respect to time, place, rank, position, sex, age etc.

Perhaps there is no rational account. So we may be asking for the impossible. Or perhaps we are too Western in our point of view in demanding "a faith seeking understanding."

The bishops are seeking their own will. They reject the community of all of the Greek Catholic / Orthodox bishops and go their own way.

I obtained a copy of this book through a friend about two months ago. It was practically unreadable for me. I tried to skim it. I could not even "plow" through it. I must agree with Fr Anthony's review.

I am so happy that I did not pay for this book!

R

I was also given this book by a friend and am very glad I saved the $10.

now i don't mean to be rude (and this is sort of old, but it is worth saying)

If you are defending the book factually, there is no personal polemic involved. You are talking about what is fact.

That is what I believe is trying to be established here.

So why not answer the questions raised?

I'm new here and not sure where this should go. I'm hoping Father David or someone who is involved in liturgical catechesis can answer this question. I've been away from the Ruthenian Church for a few years and have watched the discussions on the new Divine Liturgy text.

A few months ago, I was able to visit my old parish (I moved to another state a few years back), and I saw Father David's book "Time For the Lord to Act" in the parish bookstore. I thumbed through it looking for an explanation of the significance of the Proskomedia and I didn't see anything in it about that.

This has been something that has concerned me for a couple of years now. Since I'm away from my old parish, the only Divine Liturgy I can attend is at 3 different Orthodox parishes that are in my area. For Communion, I go to a Roman Rite parish but I try to attend Divine Liturgy at least once a month at these Orthodox parishes. Of course, there are some similiarities and some differences between what I experienced at my home Byzantine parish and these Orthodox parishes. The one thing that has particularly struck me is the difference in how we Byzantines view the Proskomedia and how our use of the prosphora loaf. All the Orthodox parishes I've visited so far actually follow the liturgical directions for cutting the prosphora loaf during the Proskomedia. I've discussed this with a couple of Orthodox priests now and the reactions I got when I mentioned our practice of pre-cut pieces instead of using a whole Lamb was, well, not too approving. This has prompted me to study this whole issue and, to be honest, I am surprised this practice has arisen in our churches. What's the point in pretending to cut up the prosphora during the Proskomedia service when it's already been done? Why not just follow the service as it's written? I applaud the return of authentic tradition to our Church (infant communion, Creed in its original form, etc.), but this is one thing that seems to have escaped our attention.

Is there a move to teach the authentic practice of the Proskomedia to our people? This is why I found the lack of mention of the Proskomedia in "Time For the Lord to Act" troubling. Wouldn't this have been a great opportunity to provide catechesis as to the meaning of the Proskomedia?

Слава Ісусу Христу!

MichaelRahoza, welcome.

Very observant. As you moved from the review allow me to recollect. Over three decades ago when Patriarch Josyf (Cardinal Slipyj) visited the Pittsburgh community he was asked his first impression. He said it was like the Carpathians. He was then asked what impressed him about the United States. He said the lack of communion bread (prosphora).

Catechesis is a natural when teaching the communion of saints. I use to give each student a stamped prosphora and a plastic knife and we cut the proskomedia together. I could never discern which was more popular; playing priest or having more then a cube or two of “Bozheu” (God’s) bread to eat.

Don’t overlook the ethnic aspect in some domestic (kitchen / home) churches. On the eve of the Nativity and / or Saint Basil and / or Jordan prosphora is broken and distributed to all dipped in honey accompanying a garlic clove. This begins the Holy Supper at the first star reminding us to accept whatever God sends in life, the sweet along with the bitter. Some families as the mother slices the blessed sausage, meats and dairy from their paschal baskets the dad or son cuts the shrouded pascha bread. It is pierced with a knife then segmented as the Poskomedia prescribes. Instead of cubed the segments are sliced recalling the communion of saints, deceased family members, those to join in the breakfast and those absent like the relatives in the motherland even if we don't know them. Bard Shevchenko would add those yet to come in a cosmic union. We do not reserve church only for Sunday mornings or temples as WE are a royal priesthood.

To be fair to Father David, he has written a sharp denunciation of the practice of using "pre-cut" prosphora, let alone "pre-dried" prosphora.

One reason for the lacuna you mention - and you are right - by way of lack of much explanation of the Prothesis (aka Proskomedia) is the lack of an accessible scholarly study of that part of the service. I once asked Father Archimandrite Robert Taft what he suggests - and he responded with a reference to a book in German, which I, alas, do not speak.

You might try Bishop Basil's pamphlet "Holy Things to the Holy", which I think devotes some attention to the Prothesis.

Meanwhile, welcome to our happy forum. "Michael Rahoza" - now there's an auspicious name!

Fr. Serge