The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Martin B, Forumeagle, Sadjad, FireOfChrysostom, mashoffner
6,211 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 2,026 guests, and 125 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,546
Posts417,819
Members6,211
Most Online9,745
Jul 5th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#250390 08/24/07 03:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2

Thought this would be a fun discussion topic since so many posters have some ancestral connection to Ukraine.Unfortunately though, my first topic is as depressing as things can possibly get.

For several years I've been astounded by the colossal loss of life that occured in Ukraine between 1914 and 1947, and here's the rough figures I've come up with.

1914-1921. World War I-Russian Civil War-Polish Soviet War. Death Toll in Ukraine 1.5 million (Subtelny) For some reason 1922, the year the Civil War ended, is not included in the totals.

1921-1923. Famine Southern Ukraine. Death Toll in Ukraine between 1.5 and 2 million (Serbyn)

1932-33. Holodomor (Famine) Death Toll in Ukraine estimates as low as 1.2 million to as high as 10 million. Orest Subtelny places the figure between 3 and 6 million.

1939-1945. World War II. Death Toll in Ukraine. Civilians, between 5 and 8 million. Military 2.7 million.(Wikipedia)

1946-47. Famine. Death Toll in Ukraine 1 million (Wikipedia)

Now for the mindboggling totals. In just 33 years that's a population loss of between 12.9 and 25.2 million people. Quite possibly the most tragic loss in the history of the world.

Feel free to bring up more pleasant topics if you can.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
And that does not include the deaths by pogrom and other Soviet atrocities, likely to be never counted fully, which are well into the many millions.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487
Novosibirsk in Siberia, Russia is an example of a city in Siberia that to this day has a very large number of people of Ukrainian decent there. The mass deportations that occurred are mind boggling.

Ukraine really suffered under Communism, come to think of it, there's nowhere I've ever heard of that didn't experience mass executions and deportations when Communism was enacted.

If you really want to be depressed read:

The Black Book of Communism

below is a link that gives a brief synopsis.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/COUBLA.html



Monomakh

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 144
B
Member
Member
B Offline
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 144
Wolrd does not know many terrible things about tragic history of Ukraine and her children
Vichnaya pamyat to innocent millions ukrainian people !!!
May God never give permission to treat This beloved My Motherland !!!
What we need now it is just to be the one , unity , do not allow different evil forces to destroy us
Bozhe nam yednist poday!!!

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 542
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 542
No, the word does not know of the long suffering and tragic history of Ukraine. Until very recently, the Ukranian people did not have the right to govern themselves or go to church without government interference.

While it is not the only force to make Ukraine suffer through its history, Communism was probably the worst thing that ever happened to Ukraine.

Communism has a way of destroying a society from the inside out. I have The Black Book of Communism and it is a several-hundred page horror story - the very best (worst?) example of man's inhumanity to man. Amazingly, there are still "educators" at colleges and universities that extol Marx. I argued with some of their students at Catholic Answers before I washed my hands of the rancor of that message board.

The one way out of the darkness of Communism is Christ.

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2

Another of the great tragedies of the Russian Civil War was the fact that many of the leaders of the Whites, despised Ukrainian Nationalists and considered them traitors to Mother Russia. A more sympathetic approach may have brought about the defeat of the Reds.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 114
I
Member
Member
I Offline
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 114
Stalinist repressions in Belarus:

http://martyraloh.org/english.asp - not much in English, but we're working on it.

XVII century - 2/3 of Belarusian population exterminated by Muscovites and their allies Cossacks under pretext of "liberating" oppressed Orthodox. 100% Orthodox city of Mahilou (Mohilev, Mogilev) situated in Eastern Belarus on the river Dnepr (Dnypro-ukr.)was burnt down by Khmelnitski and Nalivayko Cossaks after its citizens refused to support them. Same things happened in Pinsk, Polatsk (where St Josaphat was martyred) and Vicebsk (birthplace of Marc Shagall where Peter I Romanov destroyed Polatsk St Sofia Cathedral (built in 10th century) and killed uniate monks.

Otherwise, fate of Ukraine and Belarus is almost identical - battlefield of Muscovy and Poland, Muscovy and Germany, etc.

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 740
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 740
Slava Isusu Khrestu

Yet another book that came out in the 50's (?) Called
"The Black Deeds Of The Kremlin Vol 1 Vol2". I wish that I could give more information as to publishers etc but I do not have any.

Z Bohom
Nycholaij

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2

Anyone have any theories on assassination of Fr Gabriel Kostelnyk ? Is there any reason to believe it was the work of NKVD, or was the most common explanation that he was shot for collaberating with the Soviets in the destruction of the Ukrainian Catholic Church the correct one ? Interesting that the OUN-UPA survived in some form until the mid 1950's.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 114
I
Member
Member
I Offline
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 114
OUN never ceased to exist. UPA fought bolsheviks and Polish Commies until Stepan Bandera was assasinated by KGB (1959).
Slava Heroyam!

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
R
Member
Member
R Offline
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
As one who is a convert to the Catholic Church from a Jewish background, the subject has been a thorny one for me to personally navigate through.

No offense intended to anybody here, but just by way of explanation, when you grow up in the Jewish community, at least what I experienced, there tends to not be a whole lot of concern or sympathy for Slavs, Ukrainian or otherwise. The reigning mentality of folks, at least the two generations preceding mine, was that Slavs tended to be inveterate anti-Semites and whatever suffering Slavs encounter should not be a matter of concern. And people tend to get irate when Jewish WWII deaths are counted indistinguishably from everyone else's. If Jews were not true Ukrainians in life, why should they be counted so in death, is what you will encounter a lot of.

Having taken a closer scrutiny of the Jewish community and 20th century Jewish history, I have come to believe that Jews need to understand the sufferings of others better as well as start to take some semblance of an honest look at what role Jews played, at times, in such events.

Most everyone knows about the Holocaust at this point. How many people really know what befell Ukraine in the late 1920s and early 1930s? There's no museum for it in Washington, no movies, and no TV mini-series. And while numerous Jews tend to pay attention to what level of collabortion the Nazis enjoyed from various ethnic groups such as the Ukrainians, virtually nobody in my community ever takes a sober look at the per capita level of Jewish participation in communist tyranny.

More understanding is needed all around, but certainly from my community. Unfortunately, the bulk of the Jewish community still seems to be completely consumed by its own historical suffering, understandable, perhaps, to a degree.

When you realize what some other groups, such as the Ukrainians, have suffered through and endured, it truly is a shock to one molded by the Jewish community.

Regards to all,
Robster

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2

I just started reading "Execution By Hunger" by Miron Dolot a survivor of the Famine in Ukraine.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 501
O
Member
Member
O Offline
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 501
Quote
More understanding is needed all around, but certainly from my community. Unfortunately, the bulk of the Jewish community still seems to be completely consumed by its own historical suffering, understandable, perhaps, to a degree.

When you realize what some other groups, such as the Ukrainians, have suffered through and endured, it truly is a shock to one molded by the Jewish community.
Dear Robster,
I appreciate your cemments and hopes for the future. I did read the following article in te NY Jewsih newspaper:The Forum" this week and to me it s quickj hopeful for Jewish relations with other ethnic groups who have their own genecides:
Quote
Armenian Genocide Debate Exposes Rifts at ADL
Jennifer Siegel | Wed. Aug 22, 2007
It has been a long, hot, difficult summer for Abraham Foxman. Faced with the fight of his professional life, the indefatigable director of the Anti-Defamation League was forced into a rare and reluctant retreat by the unlikeliest of adversaries: an ethnic minority charging one of the world�s most famous Holocaust survivors with suppressing recognition of a genocide.

For weeks, Foxman, 67, faced mounting criticism for refusing to back Armenian Americans in their quest to pass a congressional resolution recognizing as genocide the World War I-era massacre of Armenians at the hands of their Ottoman rulers. But after insisting that the ADL and the United States should not risk inciting Turkey, Israel�s most important Middle Eastern ally, by labeling the episode as genocide, he made a hasty � if less than contrite � retreat this week in the face of a potential mutiny from fellow Jews.
�I didn�t make a mistake,� Foxman said Tuesday in an interview with the Forward. He added: �No Armenian lives are under threat today or in danger. Israel is under threat and in danger, and a relationship between Israel and Turkey is vital and critical, so yeah, I have to weigh [that].�
The ADL worked to head off a full-blown public relations crisis with a carefully worded statement, released August 21, that did not endorse the congressional resolution but confirmed that the �consequences� of the actions of the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians were �tantamount to genocide.� But several observers within the organization�s leadership told the Forward that even if the effort proves successful, the saga would likely leave behind lingering questions about Foxman�s maverick leadership style as well doubts about the group�s fundamental mission.
�Are we an organization of principle? Are we an organization that will stand up for what�s right and wrong? Or are our principles put through some kind of filter that involves Israel�s self-interest?�, said a member of ADL�s national executive committee who requested anonymity. There is �that subtext here.�
Some saw the brouhaha as a matter of chickens coming home to roost for Foxman, who has served as the ADL�s director since 1987. Over the years, Foxman has charged an array of foes with misrepresenting Jewish history and fomenting antisemitism, including Mel Gibson, Jimmy Carter, Louis Farrakhan and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran. �There�s a huge irony here,� said Jonathan Sarna, a professor of Jewish history at Brandeis University. �The Armenian community is using all the strategies we invented to deal with Holocaust denial.�
Although a dispute over the Armenian genocide has simmered within some Jewish circles for years, ADL�s recent controversy commenced last April, when Foxman told the Los Angeles Times that he opposed a resolution, proposed by Congressman Adam Schiff and co-sponsored by 29 out 43 Jewish members of Congress, to officially recognize the Armenian massacres of 1915-1923 as a genocide.
�The Turks and Armenians need to revisit their past,� Foxman told the newspaper. �The Jewish community shouldn�t be the arbiter of that history. And I don�t think the U.S. Congress should be the arbiter, either.�
Although officially the ADL did not take a position on the bill, along with B�nai B�rith International, the American Jewish Committee and the Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs, all four groups have said publicly that historians, not lawmakers, should settle the debate over the 1.5 million Armenian deaths. Earlier this year, the groups passed along to congressional leaders a letter from Turkish Jews opposing the resolution.
But ultimately, Foxman and the ADL, which was founded to combat antisemitism in 1913, confronted the bulk of public opposition. The issue erupted last week when the town council of Watertown, Mass.� home to one of the country�s oldest and largest Armenian communities � voted to withdraw from an ADL-run anti-discrimination program. With other area towns poised to follow suit, ADL�s New England regional board, one of the organization�s most influential and moneyed, issued a statement backing the congressional resolution, and the board�s professional head, regional director Andrew Tarsy, publicly disavowed Foxman�s position.
Tarsy was summarily fired last Friday, resulting in the cascade of events � including the resignations of two regional board members, condemnation of the ADL by such prominent Jews as Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz and a public rift with the Jewish Community Relations Council of Greater Boston, which organized a petition campaign among the area�s Jewish groups � that forced Foxman and the ADL�s national leadership to change course.
As of press time, the ADL had not announced whether Tarsy would be reinstated. In speaking to the Forward, Foxman � who is slated to release a book, �The Most Dangerous Lies: The Israel Lobby and the Myth of Jewish Control,� next month � remained almost defiantly unapologetic.
�We�ve never denied that there was a massacre, we [just] didn�t engage in the g-word,� Foxman said. �Now, they�ve insisted on the g-word. Fine.� He added: �If my going public and saying this was a genocide can bring unity to the community, and can make the Armenian community feel that they�re being heard, then I did it.�
The national director said he personally had believed that the Armenian tragedy constituted genocide before saying so publicly, but that his reversal was motivated by a concern for Jewish welfare. �I�m saying it sincerely. I still don�t think it�s our issue, but so many people believe it is our issue� I said okay,� Foxman said.
He added: �I saw what this was doing to the unity of the Jewish community at a time we need unity. Israel is under threat. European Jewry, Latin American Jewry are under attack. In America, we�re being attacked as disloyal. This is not a time for Jews to be attacking each other over an issue that is really not central.�
Armenian American leaders welcomed the ADL�s updated position but deemed it far from a full victory.
�This is a current-day issue,� said Anthony Barsamian, director of public affairs for the Armenian Assembly of America. �Speaking about genocide in Turkey will get you killed. Last fall, I traveled to Turkey and met with Hrant Dink, who was then the editor of the [Turkish-Armenian newspaper] Agos, and he was assuring me that this was an issue for Turks and Armenians within Turkey, and three months later, he was assassinated.�
Within the ADL, Foxman�s critics also seemed unlikely to be fully placated. Although Foxman is widely credited within the organization as a master tactician equally adept at handling world leaders and big-time donors, his detractors have long resented what they see as his propensity to unilaterally adopt positions, as when he lobbied for a pardon for financier Marc Rich in the final days of the Clinton administration. In 2001, Foxman angered leaders in Los Angeles when he unexpectedly fired the director of the ADL�s Pacific Southwest region.
�This is d�j� vu,� said Joel Sprayregen, a longtime critic of Foxman who is a former national vice chair of the ADL and honorary chair of its Chicago region. �To many of us, it seems, here he does it again.�
Wed. Aug 22, 2007 http://www.forward.com/articles/11470/
Orest

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Likes: 2

In addition to Execution By Hunger, I've also began reading the very detailed Harvest Of Sorrow by Robert Conquest. Amazing that I've never seen a documentary in English about what occured in Ukraine in the 1930's.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
U
Member
Member
U Offline
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Isn't there a documentary called "Harvest of Despair"? Is it in Ukrainian with English subtitles?

Ungcsertezs

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Irish Melkite, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2025 (Forum 1998-2025). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0