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I have noticed that at the end of the lirtugy the priest prays for the patriarch of constantinople.Isn't he the ecumenical patriarch of the orthodox church?I thought the pope was our ecumenical patriarch.thanks
Valentino

well, what Church to you belong to?

I was told that in Grotaferatta, the Ecumenical Patriarch is mentioned in the dyptics after the Pope of Rome.

Dear Friends,

I too have known Eastern Catholic priests who commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch after the Pope of Rome.

Fr. Serge Keleher told me he always commemorated the Patriarch of New Rome on St Andrew's Day!

There is nothing wrong in so doing, the anathemas have been lifted.

Although we are formally still not in perfect communion with one another, such a commemoration in the diptychs is justified since only an anathema may cancel such a commemoration.

I also know a very pious Anglo-Catholic priest who commemorates the Pope of Rome and then the Archbishop of Canterbury . . .

A real keener or what?

Alex

Valentino,
This also confused me when I first started to attend the Divine Liturgy.

Here is the prayer from the end of the liturgy.

PRIEST: He who is risen from the dead, Christ our true God, through the prayers of his all spotless and all pure Mother and of our Father among the Saints John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, (of the saints of the church and of the day), of the holy and just Ancestors of Christ, Joachim and Anne, and of all the saints, may this same Lord, Jesus Christ have mercy on us and save us, for He is good and loves mankind. Through the prayers of our holy fathers, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, have mercy on us and save us. Amen

Do you see the bolded section? It depends on how the priest prays this section. I know it can sound like Saint John Chrysostom.(period) Archbishop of Constantinople.

But actually he is praying for Saint John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople. That is St John Chrysostom, who was Archbishop of Constantinople, and not the current Archbishop of Constantinople.

Your brother in Christ,
David

Dear David,

Good point!

Why are you 'invisible?'

Alex

Dear Alex,

Maybe he's invisible because he wants us to ignore his good points? :p

Or maybe because his good points are so sharp you can't see them? :p

Or perhaps his points are those of a star so brilliant that our eyes would burn out if we saw it, so he stays invisible in charity to us? :p

To get back to the thread, has anyone heard one of our priests commemorating the Moscow Patriarch, Alexei or any earlier one?

Have a Blessed New Year !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Not Alexei...sheesh. If you commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow in some Ukie churches you'd be hauled out and whipped...especially if there were some old UPA sympathizers still around. But I do know of some Ukrainian Catholic priests who have commemorated Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch Mystoslav (Skrypnyk) when he was still alive.

I think the issue is the commemoration of St. John Chrysystom. I have been asked this question about the commemoration of the Patriarch of Constantinople at the end of the liturgy before. But as Alex so well pointed out, the anathemas have been lifted.

Although we are not in perfect communion with New Rome, there is no longer the explicit, ipso facto excommunication of 1054 which was remanded by Patriarch Athenogoras and Pope Paul the VI in 1965. So I suppose there would be nothing prohibiting including Bartolomeos in the Diptychs - perhaps it could be a step towards full communion!

Diak stated: "Not Alexei...sheesh. If you commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow in some Ukie churches you'd be hauled out and whipped...especially if there were some old UPA sympathizers still around."

True hahaha.

If you commorated him, you would be commemorating a (former) KGB agent not a patriarch, in my opinon.

NOT ONLY THAT!!! I even heard some priests as some Orthodox Churches (especially the Antiochian Orthodox) have commemorated the Pope of Rome!!! YES! Believe it or not.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Friends,

DavidB's posting of the text made this clear, I think. This is not a commemoration like one for a reigning hierarch, patriarch/pope, that is done on the diskos and in the litanies and great entrance.

Looking at the text of this "dismissal" we can see that the one being petitioned is Christ, through the intercession of (fill in the blank). At the Liturgy of St. Basil, St. Basil is mentioned at that position not St. John. At the Liturgy of the pre-sanctified Gifts it is St. Gregory of Rome, Dialogos that is mentioned, not St. Basil or St. John. East saint is mentioned because he is the "traditional" author of the liturgy in question, this holds true in all Byzantine Catholic/Orthodox jurisdictions. I have heard some priest say "...whose liturgy we have celebrated" that makes it clear but can't be seen as part of the text itself.

The saints mentioned in the dismissal are the Mother of God, the author of the liturgy, the saint of the church, of the day, and the Holy Ancestors, with qualifications such as "whose feast we celebrate today," etc. There may be local variations but they are all saints.

Tony

Dear Tony,

I've always loved the commemoration of our Father among the Saints, John, Archbishop of Constantinople at the end of the liturgy.

For me, it confirms our enduring relationship with our Mother Church, Constantinople, the source of our entire patrimony etc.

But I've also heard priests commemorating the Ecumenical Patriarch of New Rome by name in the diptychs following the great Entrance.

If it's any of my business, what was the "last straw" that prompted you to leave the BC's?

Alex

Alex,

Commemorations of a living hierarch during a litany, the great entrance or at the dyptics has nothing to do with the mentioning of the author of the liturgy at the dismissal. Note that at Vespers, Matins, etc, St. John (or Basil or Gregory) is not mentioned unless it is his church or day.

If you want to engage me about why I am no longer BC you are free to contact me via private message. Such a discussion here would not be appropriate.

Tony

I believe it was our noted liturgist, Msgr. Basil Shereghy of blessed memory, who wrote why (at least in our particular tradition) St. Gregory Dialogos is not commemorated at the end of the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts.

Dear Tony,

As for your first point, yes, I do know that, even though I'm not a seminarian!

I'm just stating the fact that I've heard the commemoration of a living Orthodox Patriarch by Eastern Catholic priests with whom they are not yet in perfect communion.

Alex

Lemko,

I don't recall this. Perhaps you can give the reference or quote it here for us? In contemporary BC practice is he not commemorated? At least in the OCA parish I attend(ed) he is.

Tony