The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
jsunseri, Andrew_the_Ascetic, Giovanni1, SeekingTruth, friendly_pilgrim
5,863 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (2 invisible), 91 guests, and 20 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,191
Posts415,118
Members5,863
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 491
P
PrJ Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 491
NPR is doing a three-part series on the Maronites -- see http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16067482 for the first installment.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Quote
This Christian denomination is found only in Lebanon and has played a central role in that country's frequent struggles over political power.

OK, already I am seeing about 4 things that make me leery of NPRs accuracy here...

"The maronite religion" "Maintian close ties to European Catholics, especially in France" 5+ minutes and the word "Catholic" was not used once...


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
"The Maronite religion"

- At one point in history the Maronite people were their own unique, separate Christian line, though I doubt this is what they were referring to. NPR used this most likely to separate the Maronites from the diversity pool that is Lebanon.

"Maintain close ties to European Catholics, especially in France."

- This is quite accurate. If you listen to the program you do hear about the historical influence of France. French is commonly spoken by Maronites, Lebanese at that, and the ties to the French are still remarkably strong. Nothing wrong with this statement.

Lack of use of the word "Catholic"

- Maronites do not refer to themselves as "Maronite Catholics," normally it is either "Maronite Christian" or simply Maronites. Originally, it was simply stating that you were Beit Maroun, or of the house of Maroun. Really not an issue. The identity of Maronite Catholic is a product of the diaspora, I believe.



Last edited by Beit Maroun; 11/07/07 07:16 PM.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Alright that is fair. I wasn't disputing the "French connection" just thought it was odd the way it was presented. From the sound of it the fact they are in the same communion was not really addressed. Your average non-Catholic/Orthodox hearing this story could just as easily imagine the Maronites as looking like "First Antioch Baptist Church"...

But thanks for the info!

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,286
Likes: 16
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,286
Likes: 16
A Simple Sinner,

This is a prime of example of the fallacy of the statement: Catholic first, Eastern second. That is like saying human first, male second, an impossibility. One is human precisely because they are male or female. Likewise, one can only be Catholic by being Latin, Byzantine, Maronite, etc. Just as there is no generic, non-gendered human there is no generic, non-particular Catholic even though there are beliefs all Catholic traditions share. For the Maronites the name implies both their particular tradition and their union with Rome. To say Maronite Catholic to them is redundant. Maronite says it all.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
For the Maronites the name implies both their particular tradition and their union with Rome. To say Maronite Catholic to them is redundant. Maronite says it all.

A far better statement than my own, thank you, Abouna, for articulating.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
A Simple Sinner,
For the Maronites the name implies both their particular tradition and their union with Rome. To say Maronite Catholic to them is redundant. Maronite says it all.


Father Deacon, I have no qualms or arguments with what you say. I just find it exceedingly odd that the story on NPR makes no mention of the communion that exists as though it is not kind of a big thing. Sort of like a 6 minute story on the Ruthenians of Pittsburgh failing to mention that we are Catholics...

If you are introducing Maronites to the world it seems relevent. I stand by my objection to the website's summary of the story that tells us "This Christian denomination is found only in Lebanon..."

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
[quote=Fr. Deacon Lance]Father Deacon, I have no qualms or arguments with what you say. I just find it exceedingly odd that the story on NPR makes no mention of the communion that exists as though it is not kind of a big thing. Sort of like a 6 minute story on the Ruthenians of Pittsburgh failing to mention that we are Catholics...

I understand the strain, but it does not seem exceedingly odd. Remember, this is also a three part series, let's see what else might come forth. In the mean time, however, remember that it is incredibly difficult to cram a tradition full of mystery, history and a lot of controversy into 6 minutes when the focus is the political ramifications in Lebanon of the 20 and 21 century. If NPR suddenly called them "catholic" then listeners would no doubt (on no fault of their own) conjure some image of the "Roman Catholic Church" for that is all the Catholic church is to mainstream society. Granted, that begs, can't this be the means to change that, yes, but not in 6 minutes when discussing socio-political commentary.

Quote
If you are introducing Maronites to the world it seems relevant. I stand by my objection to the website's summary of the story that tells us "This Christian denomination is found only in Lebanon..."


To be honest, I don't think it is too relevant right off the bat, learning about the Eastern communities takes time, and it would be far worse if we suddenly throw everything at the casual observer. However, I certainly agree with your objection regarding, "This Christian denomination is found only in Lebanon..." though I know there are no official documents released by the church in Lebanon regarding diasporic numbers.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
Z
Zan Offline
BANNED
Member
Offline
BANNED
Member
Z
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
I agree with Simple Sinner, and why avoid calling yourself Catholic just because you are Eastern? I am proud to be with the pope and so should other Eastern Catholics.

If the thing was about the "Romanian Church" and the entire program avoided the word "Orthodox" I bet people on this thread would be rather sour about it.

Last edited by Zan; 11/09/07 11:57 AM.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
Z
Zan Offline
BANNED
Member
Offline
BANNED
Member
Z
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
A Simple Sinner,

This is a prime of example of the fallacy of the statement: Catholic first, Eastern second. That is like saying human first, male second, an impossibility. One is human precisely because they are male or female. Likewise, one can only be Catholic by being Latin, Byzantine, Maronite, etc. Just as there is no generic, non-gendered human there is no generic, non-particular Catholic even though there are beliefs all Catholic traditions share.

With respect Fr. Deacon, that is like Saying Russian Orthodox first, Orthodox second. I mean absolutely specify that they are Maronite but leaving out the Catholic part just because they are not Roman is very wrong imo.

Mainstream Americans may just think the Maronites are just an independent Church with close ties to Catholicism. It only takes a moment to explain they are Eastern Catholic and what an Eastern Catholic is.

Last edited by Zan; 11/09/07 12:26 PM.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Zan,

With all do respect, I will emphasize Abouna's point again: for a Maronite, the "Catholic" understanding is implicit in their name. You must also understand that back in Lebanon, what translates as "Roman Catholic" is actually the name of the Melkite Greek Catholics.

I disagree with you, it is not saying Oriental first, Catholic second, they are one in the same, completely in line with the 'universal' definition of what 'Catholic' means.

NPR actually represented fairly well how most Maronites back in Lebanon see themselves: Maronite Christians, for the Christian emphasis is more important to separate themselves from their Druze and Moslem brothers and sisters, as the Catholic understanding is implicit in their relations.

Please do not judge this situation as some sort of denial or lack of pride of their Catholic status, you are simply ignorant of the cultural identity Maronites see themselves in. Within the United States, the Maronite community is a different story, they don't need to distinguish as Christian, they have to distinguish amongst Christians, hence the redundant adaptation of 'Maronite Catholic.'

As a Maronite spending a lifetime explaining his church and communion, I pray for the day it only takes a minute explaining the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. Add to that, most Eastern and Oriental Catholics struggle with the concept of what an Eastern Catholic is themselves.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
As there is no Orthodox equivalent of the Maronite Church, I fail to see where the need to identify them as Catholics is required. I mean, what else could they be? Who could they be confused with? The situation is slightly different than in most of Eastern Europe where Catholic and Orthodox Churches exist side by side, using the same Rite.

Alexandr

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
As there is no Orthodox equivalent of the Maronite Church, I fail to see where the need to identify them as Catholics is required. I mean, what else could they be? Who could they be confused with? The situation is slightly different than in most of Eastern Europe where Catholic and Orthodox Churches exist side by side, using the same Rite.
Yet another good point. Again, at one time, the Maronites where their own line of Christian transmission, and prior to their isolation there was no distinction between "Orthodox" and "Catholic." I do find it humorous to think that an entire people missed out on the Great Schism. grin

I personally believe that there is a new current in the Diaspora to pronounce catholicity in an effort to affirm Catholic identity. To me, it makes more sense to pronounce myself as "Maronite!" than "Maronite Catholic!" least of all to ensure that people understand my being Catholic as something inseparable from who I am, and not merely an appendage to distinguish "Oriental" from the proceeding "Catholic."

Last edited by Beit Maroun; 11/09/07 09:50 PM.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 155
Nan Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 155
This afternoon I went on a tour of the local Maronite church as part of the Roman Catholic Basilica's Icon Festival. Because I'm taking an iconography class at the Maronite church and had already googled since I had no idea about them and have read about various eastern christians here, I was oriented as to the Maronites; however, many people on the tour were asking and had no idea about Eastern Catholics or that Maronites have followed the same religion for the last 2000 years and at one point (the 400's maybe?) believed they were the only ones to do so

I stayed for the DL and as a Roman Catholic, if I didn't know it was a catholic church, might not have caught on for awhile. Bits and pieces seemed the same, but overall it was completely different than my experience. The Ruthenian and Orthodox liturgy seem more familiar to me.


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5