www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ethnicity as a stumbling block for conversion

AMEN!

My impression when attending the ethnic UGCC that I used to attend (and, God willing, will do so again soon ) was that I knew the Liturgy would be half Ukrainian and half English. I didn't know that the people were mostly 1st or 2nd generation Ukrainians. But as soon as the "coffee hour" started, we were welcomed like the Prodigal Son. We had never been so warmly received and that's how it should be. To paraphrase Alexandr, show them agape and your service can be in Swahili and people will come.

Maybe one of the reasons you've never felt the ethnic tones as a barrier is that Rusyns were originally Vikings! At least one theory says that. The Vikings came down from the Baltic into what is now Ukraine. And stayed. And migrated west into what is now Western Ukraine and Eastern Slovakia. So Carpatho-Rusyns are actually the descendants of Vikings!

Another theory is that the Varangian Guards were given land as their rewards and some of the land was in what is now Ukraine. Kiev as the center of what was Rus.

So in all reality, you've just come full circle. Or rather, just made the natural evolution from Viking to Rusyn. Welcome home!

Tim

In a country made up of various culutres with no "distinctive" expression, I think that for some people the ethic character of Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches IS a draw.

I don't think the ethnic character should be forced on anyone and it certainly can push people away. However, thereis even diversity in dicversity. For instance, at the Melkite Church in Phoenix, we have Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, and Lebanese. These are all very distinct cultures!

Of course we also have people from Irish, German, British and Rusyn backgrounds.

I have to say that I have always been facinated by various cultures and so the ethnicity WAS a draw for me. Ther closeness of the community and the church. It is a second family to me. Besides, we have Kibbeh Nayyeh!!!

I think I have to disagree that simply being friendly and welcoming (though these are incredibly important factors in attracting and retaining people) is enough, especially irrespective of the language. I would not go to a church if the language was predominantly in something other than English even if the people were really nice. The reason is that I wouldn't be getting anything out of it, and neither would my kids. It would be sort of like how the dogs hear people in Gary Larson cartoons.

What I do think is unfortunate is that many Orthodox Churches have essentially adopted the flytrap approach, and often the only visible form of outreach engaged in are the ethnic festivals and fairs. This is I believe problematic.

I help one of our priests teach the middle and high school kids on Sundays and this year we're doing the book of Acts. Last Sunday we had a conversation very much related to this, based around the gifts of the spirit. In Acts 4 Peter and John are arrested for preaching and healing, and when questioned, basically say they simply aren't able to stop speaking publicaly about their faith. It is too important to them to do so, and in so doing they bring about the conversion of thousands. Our priest asked the kids and myself about this and tried to find where we find gifts of the spirit, and how what would happen if we followed the example of Peter and John. What I didn't say of course was that I think we tend to take the exact opposite approach, and simply keep our faith contained in our parish and wait for people to arrive. One of the kids said his Dad told him to never talk about religion with anybody, because it would lead to trouble.

I think we do have something wrong in our approach. I would not put the blame itself on ethnicity (though some do), though I think the ethnic component can became a symptom or even a cause of a certain unfortunate tendency to insularity or self-sufficiency.

This one really is a tough one and I certainly will not claim to have the definitive answer. One the one hand--having a totally ethnic church and Liturgy could turn many people off. If they can't understand what is being said or what is happening, how are they going to get much out of it. Then on the other hand, when ethnic based churches go all out ethnic and do ethnic festivals--it brings in money and people by the loads. In most cases. If you don't have people, you can't have converts or additional parishioners. Either converts or people who are originally of that nationality but have fallen away. And the ethnic festivals can bring them back around to "come home" in a sense. Too little of one is not enough. Too much of one is too much. What's the middle ground? I certainly do not know. I wish I did. Then my church would be overflowing with people. But I don't, so it isn't.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of ethnicity. It doesn't even have to be at every Liturgy. Once a month a few prayers in that language. People will get the connection between the english version and the ethnic version of the prayer. But there is something to be said about how welcoming the people in the church are. If people don't feel welcome, they're not going to come back unlesss the visitor is a religious fanatic or already decided on switching.

I guess the Greeks were right--moderation in all things.

Tim

Just leave out the organs and choir robes!

I'm a convert to Orthodoxy with a northern European heritage. My ancestors have been in the States (or Canada) for so long there are no ethnic traditions in my family.

I joined an English-speaking, almost all convert Orthodox parish, because that's where I was directed by a friend who had attended there before her family moved away.

However, I've visited Greek parishes for special services, YAL events, and I was rarely welcomed. In more than one case (YAL), I was told I was not wanted because I was not Greek. I even helped out multiple times with a soup kitchen at one local Greek parish, and got grilled about my ethnicity each time I arrived to volunteer. As soon as I would answer I wasn't Greek, but I *was* Orthodox, the conversation would switch to Greek. I finally gave up and didn't volunteer there any longer.

My metropolitan area does have a large Greek-speaking population, but the worst cases of "You not Greek, we don't want to, don't care if you're Orthodox" have occurred at parishes with few immigrants and more 2nd-3rd generation Greeks. In fact, my English-speaking parish has begun to get folks of Greek heritage (who speak little if any Greek) because they want to have services in English. Most local Greek parishes have services that are about 75% in Greek. At least one priest was forced out of a parish where he tried include more English in services.

Very sad, really.

It's different if you're already Byzantine Catholic or Orthodox, for example, and just switch parishes - you already know what's going on if you move from a parish with English services to one with non-English. However, if you're thinking about converting - say from Protestantism, and everything is new - not being able to understand what's going on can be quite a barrier to conversion.

That's been my experience as well, Doc. The Prodigal Son is an excellent example that I use on a regular basis when I think of myself and my UGCC. Even before I became clergy we were never treated so warmly and with as much respect at any other parishes of any other jurisdiction, and yes that does make a difference, especially to the wife. The ethnicity (althoug I am distantly related) was never a point of exclusion for us, but rather drew us into a richer culture centered on God and the liturgy - quite unlike mainstream American modern culture.

The amazement continues to happen on a regular basis. Last week as I was finishing tidying up in the altar at our parish in Lincoln of St. George I came out of the iconostasis. The ladies were patientially waiting in the back - the hospodar's wife stepped forward and said "we want to sing for you Otche Diakon". Then followed several rounds of Mnohaja Lita as well as several other folk songs, and I was well in tears by the end of it all. It's good to be home.

Dear Marie,

From your profile, it doesn't say what state or city you are from.

I am really sorry about your experience, and please know that not all Greek Orthodox parishes are like the ones you have encountered, though the type of people you encountered definitely do exist, and they should be ashamed of themselves.

There can be quite a discrepancy, even within thirty mile radiuses, in how welcoming or not welcoming Greek Orthodox parishes are to non-Greeks. I believe that alot depends on the priest and how much he tries to emphasize Orthodox Christianity and spirituality to his congregation OVER cultural Orthodoxy. When a pastor cares more about the second, the congregation is given carte blanche to be an ethnic club rather than a church.

In any case, I think that one needs to meet the priest FIRST before attempting to become a member of a Greek Orthodox church community. You can gauge the community from your discussion with him, and by meeting him and introducing yourself to him first, he can also become a powerful advocate for you feeling welcome!

In Christ,
Alice

I'm very sorry you had that experience, Marie. That's sad, I agree. And it isn't very Christian, either. My parish priest had some experiences that saddened him and made him more than a bit angry. Some nuns, who happened to be a different ethnicity and skin color than the Ruthenian parishioners at his church were not exactly welcoming to the nuns. And there is simply no excuse for that.

My parents were born in the early 1900's and as people of their generation, they used words and phrases that would not be considered appropriate today. But they never meant anything disrespectful by it. It was just an expression, nothing more, nothing less. And they always taught us kids (I'm the youngest of seven) that we should treat everyone the same, regardless of color or religion or ethnicity. And this was in the early 1960's, during the incredible problems with Civil Rights in the South. There were no people of any other color than white in my hometown. We were quite diverse--as long as you consider every country and region in Eastern Europe to be diverse. But they made sure we knew that Christ taught us to treat everyone equally. Take people at their word until they prove untrustworty. Give them the benefit of a doubt. I don't see what's so hard about that. From one Christian to another to be rude is just silly.

Let's all say a prayer for the ladies at that Parish. And hope the priest has enough guts to lay down the law and let them know rudeness is not acceptable.

Tim

Alice, I didn't put down my location because I've been burned online before where I was more open. I didn't put down my jurisdiction either, for the same reason. Just know that I have experience with both the OCA and the Antiochians.

What's "funny" is that the priests were generally welcoming, and even spoke about a convert in their midst might give a jump start to some of the younger people.

That's it. Right there. End of story! Close the book! Movies over, go home and turn out the lights!

Being a welcoming parish comes first.

Everyone is ethnic. We don't think about it, but I am an ethnic midwesterner. I can play up some ethnic cards a little... But when push comes to shove, no one is going to confuse me for a Hungarian, Scotsman or French-Canadian. I'm a Buckeye.

But if all our parishes went white bread ethnic Ohioan tomorrow, guess what? We'd still be ethnic!

A few years ago I was switiching through the channels and saw a an Eastern church in a video clip on some Evangelical station. Much to my chagrin they were talking about the missionaries they were sending over to convert these unsaved Christians. Then they cut to a Palestinian Evangelical pastor in jeans and tennis shoes who spoke English with a feint Southern US accent! Talking in bapto-speak about "Strengthening the brothers", I almost fell out of my chair! Well I will be, an ethnic Palestinian/Son of Dixie! Who knew?

My priest friend in California assures me that the situation is the same in Hispanic evangelical congregations - picture Scarface meets Jimmy Swaggart/Jim Baker! (Can I get an A-men, amigos?!?)

Ethnic is as ethnic does.

What seems to matter most is hospitality and prayer. I am a radical moderate on this one - cook up ethnic food in the kitchen, sing hymns from the old country, throw in some Slavonic/Greek/Arabic... People will first and foremost respond to being welcomed, invited to coffee hour, and being invited back.

Ethnicity has never caused the slightest problem for me at the UGCC church I attend. Despite being non-Ukrainian, being on the young side at 47, and having very long hair, I immediately got on well with a number of parishoners because we had other more important things in common. I grew up in the same neighborhood where the church started out, so that was a great opening topic for conversation. Then I demonstrated a rudimentary understanding of Ukraine and it's history by discussing Petliura, Khmelnitzky, the Famine etc, and when they got around to asking with polite curiosity why I started attending their church, I told them very matter of fact about my displeasure at the irreverent way masses are conducted at the Roman Catholic Churches in the area. Best of all though, I like attending a church where the parishoners hold to the same views and values that I was raised with. Heck, after Liturgy this morning, I spent over an hour chatting with an elderly man who's son once threatened me in High School. We later got on well, but sadly he no longer attends any church.