www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Carpatho Russia

Where is Carpatho Russia? I cannot find it on any map. I went back two hundred years and can't find anything that mentions a Carpatho Russia. I assume that they speak Russian there since it is (???) in Russian territory?

Ed

It would be what is now the the very eastern part of Slovakia, a part of southeastern Poland, and also ( I think), the most western part of Ukraine all bounded by the Carpathian mountains.

If anyone can be more precise, please do.

Etnick,

Thanks. Are they Russian? If so, when did the Russians migrate there?

Ed

They are considered an East Slavic people and language, but not great Russian

The traditional Carpatho-Rusyn homeland is found in Southwest Ukraine, Northeast Slovakia, Southeast Poland, Northeast Hungary, and Northcentral Romania. They speak Rusyn which is related to but not the same as Russian. The Carpatho-Rusyn Society has lots of info:
http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

I'm tempted to say that Carpatho-Russia is a state of mind, but that would be trite.
Capatho-Rus is an area in Eastern Europe that is on either side of the Carpathian mountin chain from Poland down into Yugoslavia. It has never been on any map since it has never been an independent nation. Our people, Rusyn (pronounced "ROOOS-in) have always been an ethinc minority in someone else's country. If you look at the map of Eastern Europe, you are talking about either side of the Carpatian Mountains from basically the Czech Repulic, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukraine and down farther into Romania and Croatia and what is the remnants of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia, by the way, means "Southern Slavs." Here's a URL that might show it better: http://www.rec.org/REC/Maps/eur_map.html.

Since that part of the world was mostly under the Austro-Hungarian or Russian control for lots of years, things can get confusing. Do they speak Russian? Some may. But most speak Rusyn. Which is similar to Slovak, Ukrainian and a few other languages. There are large debates goign on now in Slovakia and Ukraine as to whether Rusyn in it's own language or a dialtect of their languages. Ask a Rusyn, you can figure out what answer you will get.

In Latin, Rusyn became Ruthenian. So if you see Byzantine Ruthenian, you are actually talking about the Rusyn people who are in communion with Rome. They were formally known as Greek Catholic and still are in Eastern Europe.

This is a very, very oversimplified explanation. For more information I direct you to:

http://www.c-rs.org/

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

and for more info on Carpatho-Rusyns in America--http://www.geocities.com/stnicksbyzantine/CARPATHO.html

for traditions, especially Christmas and Easter, try this: http://www.iarelative.com/

The first two organizations are very good.

I am Carpatho-Rusyn and darn proud of it! By the way, it is consisdered by most CR's an insult to pronounce it Carpatho-Russian. I dont' get upset, but I know others do.

Good luck! And welcome to the club--are you sure you're not Carpatho-Rusyn? If your relatives came from that area of Eastern Europe and were Greek Catholic, you might be Carpatho-Rusyn! (Do I sound like Jeff Foxworthy and his redneck jokes?)

Tim

Yes, Carpatho Rusyns are not, nor have ever been Russian.

The switch to "Russian" came about primarily after WWI when in America you had to have a country to be considered a people...therefore many identified with Russia. This is the time when many Rusyns falsely identified as Czechoslovak, or Ukrainian.

To the detriment of the Rusyns, many of our national awakeners such as Duchnovich, Pavlovich and Dobrianskyj had a great affinity for Russia and the idea of the Pan-slavic movements of the 19th century. These national awakeners were the only ones that spoke Great Russian. They tried to integrate Russian and Church Slavonic into the Rusyn that the villagers spoke, but only created a macronic jargon language commonly referred to as "Jazichie".

Rusyns also did not speak Ukrainian until the communists began trying to ukrainianize them, primarily when the communists started coming to age in the 1920's and 1930's. They forcibly integrated Ukrainian into the cirriculum. Remember that Transcarpathia was never part of Ukraine until after WWII, it was always part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire for close to 1000 years.

Also, when the Czar sponsored and financed many Rusyn churches in the early 20th century here in America the stipulation was that they become Russian. You can see this clearly in many of the pictures of the time. One year they wore their peasant costumes. Once the money came from Russia, the next picture had everyone in the elaborate silk shirts and longflowing dresses.

Here in Pittsburgh, at the Univer. of Pgh., we have nationality rooms that were created immediately after the Cathedral of Learning was built in the late 1930's. The requirement was that you needed a country to have a nationality room. The GCU sponsored the Russian Room there and was not able to call it the Rusyn room, because you could not find it on a map, so they began calling our area Carpatho-Russia.

As for if Rusyns are their own nationality, sure, if you ask a Rusyn you know the answer. If you ask a Ukrainian or a Slovak, the answer will be skewed as well because of the official communist policy of the time that Rusyns did not exist. Stalin integrated this policy to try to get Rusyns to change to Orthodoxy that was controlled by the state, not to stay Greek Catholic that was lead by the western Pope.

This link is pretty good - http://www.simkovich.org/religion.htm

We ended up at a Carpatho-Russian parish by happenstance/proximity and I had no idea what the term meant at the time. Maybe some day I'll be sort of an adopted Rusyn. I like Lekvar and Kobasi, so I figure I'm half way there.

Jazychie is a recently concocted word (that's "recently" as in the past 160 years or so) which was originally used to mean the results of attempts to speak or write in Russian by people who were not really competent to speak or write in Russian. But I'm not surprise to learn that its meaning is widening these days. A reasonable English version might well involve the term Creole.

There are some Carpatho-Russians (including, obviously, the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese in the USA) who prefer to retain that term - they are not seeking to insult anyone, but that has been their preferred term for quite a while and it serves them well. If others profer a different term, well, de gustibus non est disputandum.

On that point in another culture - in fact in two other cultures simultaneously - I've been tempted for many years to market a T-shirt for sale to American tourists in Ireland, bearing crossed Irish and American flags and the words Is Poncan Mise! For those who do not, alas, speak the most beautiful language in the world, that slogan means "I'm a Yank!" I'm sure it would sell.

Fr. Serge

I'll take a dozen father. But I'd prefer it read "I'm a Yankee" for my friends from north of the mason dixon line, of whom the south is abundantly full these days.

Jason

I'll take a dozen as well! Thanks for the info, everyone. I hope Ed wasn't overwhelmed by the responses. It's something that we Rusyns feel quite strongly about. Our language is a real language--not a dialect. We are a distinct people. We just have never been recognized as such. And the problems continue to this day in Slovakia and Ukraine. But maybe one day my son will be able to look at a map and say--"That's where my family is from!" God willing.

And you are right, Father, about the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocease. Their Archeparchy and Patriarch are very close to my home town. When I was a kid, we lived about five blocks from their Cathedral. Then we moved when I was three to my parent's home town, about 15 miles away. I've been to the Cathedral often. It's quite beautiful and I love the Liturgy! It's been a bit since I've been there. I'll have to put it down on my "to do" list! I just wish I could receive Communion, but that is not possible just now.

Tim

Rusyn31--I have never seen the Simkovich site before--it is wonderful! Some great stuff. I added it to my "best list on Carpatho-Rusyn things." Thanks for the tip!

Tim

I help with the jr high/high school age Sunday school class and the topic of the name of the diocese came up last week. The priest said "does it mean we're Russian", to which the answer came "no, we're Rusyn!".

It is very confusing to most people. It's pronounced "Roo-sin" but unless someone tells you that ahead of time, you'd never know.

Tim

Tim,

AMM posted that website. It is a new site that just came out in the past week or so.