www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is Monasticism a higher calling?

Dear Ryan,

Thank you for your post.

No cradle Orthodox has ever felt or has ever been told that marriage is devalued by this comment.

No cradle Orthodox has ever felt or been told that he is not as important in the eyes of God as a religious who is not married!

Perhaps the knee jerk reaction to that in some posters comes from 'baggage' from another experience in another faith tradition?

I urge all posters to keep their problems with other situations and statements in their proper context, and not bring them into places where they may not belong. Unless one is psychic, we cannot know all the experiences of another, so again I urge people to read the content of posts as they were meant to be understood, and not through glasses of one's former experiences, or in reaction to a tone which one finds disagreeable.

In Christ,
Alice

Monasticism and marriage are each of them vocations from God. While God does not absolutely demand that we accept this or that vocation, we do well to follow His leading, because He knows us better than we know ourselves, and He knows what will really be best for us.

A good spouse is infinitely better than a bad monk - and vice versa. But there is not some sort of competition involved. To say that monasticism is a higher calling is, in itself, true - but if one is not called to it, don't try to force your way in! The episcopate is a higher calling than the presbyterate, but presbyters who covet the episcopate, and even use dubious methods in an effort to obtain it, are seriously misbehaving.

Fr. Serge

"But if one is not called to it, don't try to force your way in!"

Good discernment requires wisdom and honesty.

Terry

The highest calling is complete devotion to God, which in the early period of the church was found principally in the lives and examples of the martyrs. The martyrs of the early church were of course drawn from all potential ages, genders, marital states, etc. Once Christianity was legalized, martyrdom became less of an option, and it was in this period that we saw the rise of monasticism as a means to match the devotion of the martyrs. It is also in this period I believe that celibacy came to be emphasized in a way that it had not before.

Celibacy and marriage are both ways of devoting oneself completely as a gift to a higher purpose. Both can be used to glorify, praise and devote oneself to God's purposes; but of course both can do the opposite. Intrinsically, biblically or theologically I don't believe one or the other is a higher calling; the church, the martyrs, the apostles existed in a perfect state before monasticism ever appeared. That is certainly in no way a denigration or criticism of someone who chooses celibacy or monasticism, they are of course to be lauded and praised for such a choice; but I don't think we should lose or perspective on what the actual highest calling is. The highest calling is giving the fullest gift of oneself, and that can happen if one is married or one isn't. The problem to me is there seems to be some implicit assumption out there that this isn't the case.

I have NO idea where you get this 'implicit assumption' from.

However, before monasticism came into existence, let's remember the Holy Family: Christ our Lord, The blessed and all holy Theotokos, and St. Joseph.

I am not threatened by the Panaghia Theotokos having been celibate, nor am I threatened by the thousand of female Saints who were celibates or nuns or both--I honour those whose calling is a bit more difficult than mine!

Anyway this thread is so 'deja vu'. Father Anthony and I will be watching it.

Father Serge: GREAT post! Thank you!

In Christ,
Alice

Well, I have certainly heard married Orthodox people who presented their vocation as something for "people who don't want to sacrifice everything for God." And there HAVE been movements within Orthodoxy that essentially forswore marriage entirely, like some of the Old Believer communities. So this "implicit assumption" is out there, not necessarily coming from "outsiders" to Orthodoxy. It is a tendency that needs to be addressed by teachers and preachers, of course, when it arises.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

In my jurisdiction, both in the Greek Orthodox diaspora and the homeland, there is a healthy regard and respect of lay people to monasticism and visa versa. Personally I have never heard such statements as have been presented, but I will stand corrected...

If fringe groups or more extreme groups with Orthodoxy have advocated some of these ideas--so what? I am married. I am not threatened by them and neither is my husband. We love monasticism and we know that their prayers and lives are very holy. Monasticism is the right arm of Orthodoxy.

If someone is bothered by such extremisms, (which are wrong), then make sure that you join a jurisdiction that is not like that, that you stay away from the extremists, and that you don't have friends from their group!

Alice

P.S. Again, let's not 'react' without explaining why we are 'reacting'. I thank you, Jeff, for atleast explaining why you believe the statements others here have made are valid.

Unfortunately, Alice, comments like the ones mentioned by Ryan are all too common in American Orthodox circles. I personally have been with couples who have been told by their spiritual father that it is sinful for them to have intercourse and that they should go to confession after each time they have sex. Another couple was told to make sure they never undressed while having sex (except for the obvious required undressing) and to put a sheet between them while doing it so that their bodies never touched carnally. In both cases, they were told that it was too bad they were not serious enough about their relationship with God to go the "whole way" and instead chose the "lesser part" of marriage. But, the good news was, they were assured ... they could still become monks when they grew older.

This kind of teaching is unfortunately not just in fringe groups ...

Here is an example from a recent article written by a priest in the Antiochian Archdiocese:


Is it any wonder that many pious Orthodox couples feel themselves to be second class citizens in the kingdom? Essentially this article states that those who chose marriage instead of monasticism are failing to follow the way of life recommended by Jesus, Mary and the saints, are chosing to marry a human being instead of Jesus (a false dichotomy I would argue -- I married Jesus in and through marrying my wife), and remain shackled to earthly attachments.

Of course, the article has to pay lip service to marriage as honorable and blessed but ... the article concludes by assuring married couples that the good news is that they can live as monks and nuns in their marriages, thus escaping their bondage to attachment by following the path of chastity -- as the priest states:

I have to discagree with you. As an Orthodox Christian no priest in my church makes such statements. Furthermore, no priest ever brings up martial relations in confession.

You sound like you have been reading or talking to people in the fringe noncanonical groups on the internet. Some of these groups include converts from Protestant sects with some bery strange ideas.

Those who are Greek Orthodox (not Slavic like me) on this forum can confirm that general confessions (not one-on-one) are quite common in the Greek Orthodox Church both in Greece and in the US. The Armenian Orthodox Church also has general confession. So how could priests even be issuing the orders you mention.

I have also checked with my priest and he has confirmed when he was in seminary and also at clergy meetings, the clergy has never been instructed to do any of the things you mention in your quote.

I probably should not have used the phrase "all too common" as that might imply every priest is doing this. But the comments I have mentioned were from priests in canonical jurisdictions. This is also happening in Russia -- if you read the releases from the Russian Synod of Bishops you will find that they have several times chided their priests because of this kind of hyper-spirituality.

I think you also are right in connecting this with converts (although it is not exlusively converts who have been troubled) as converts really want to do the right thing and have great enthusiasm for doing everything they can for Jesus. Thus, it is hard for them to have the maturity Alice expressed when she stated that she and her husband did not let themselves be bothered by such nonsense.

I don't know where the initial quote that started this thread came from, but I think we can all agree that with the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ there is no higher vocation than to be one in Him. All human beings--believers, unblievers, monastics, married people, single people, children, the aged--have been raised by the fact that God became like one of us in every way but sin. To me, the human person has such an elevated dignity simply because of Christ's entry into our reality to bridge the gap between the Father and us caused by sin. And Christ wants all of His created brothers and sisters to be one in Him. That's part of the joy of being Christian--to share with the rest of humanity who have never heard of Christ the fact that God came here to lift us up and is coming back for us.

I know that this is an Eastern board so I hope no one will take offense if I suggest that we can all profit from the profound theology of the late Pope John Paul II as he developed his theology of the body. In an age that wants to treat us all as no more than interchangeable parts available for harvesting and transplanting, it is important that we all remember the profound worth God places on each of--counting the hair on our heads, for example.

Maybe that's why it's also important that we learn and model the ultimate respect for each other that the monastics practice in their love and deference for each other. It's part of the prophetic witness they bring to us: a constant reminder of our human dignity as children of God.

In Christ,

BOB

And let the monks, nuns and married folk say together: Amen!

I remember a discussion with Mother Raphael about this - she stated that in her opinion monastic life was not that much different than married life. Both are engaged in the life-long struggle to learn how to live with other people peaceably!

I second your thinking on this one. Convert enthusiasm can lead to a sort of scrupulosity about canons, liturgics, devotianal form... "getting it perfect". We all know the recent convert whose icon corner is better appointed than some churches and whose chotki could lasso a bull. (Conversely, similar Latin enthusiasts are praying a 20 decade rosary twice a day and are up to 9 novenas and light enough votives to illuminate a Cathedral...) It can take a while to get used to "how to do" in one's newly adopted spiritual homeland.

Unfortunately (and you see as much or more of this in traditionalist Catholic circles!) many of the newly-illumed are far more tech savy than some of the "old glowers" and their near-omnipresent presense on the "inter-webs" (as babba calls it) leads many to believe their interpretations or influences are far greater than what is really common.

A handful of recent converts (Catholic & Orthodox) whose chrism oil has not yet dried, but are feeling emboldened to wildly pontificate may not be the best place to start when it comes to getting a feel for the traditions.