www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is Monasticism a higher calling?

Sometimes the problem is that this description fits the priest as well as his congregation! It then becomes hard in a hierarchical church to say "Listen to this priest" but not to that one.

yeah, it's great that nwly cChrismated folks are gung ho, but that is a big reason why the Latins,at least, will counsel a convert to waut at least a year before considering the Priesthood, I had an aquaintence in university who was told this. in other words, simmer down, folks, live the Life, and learn from others, then pontificate, hie unto the seminary, or whatever.
Much love,
Jonn

I think that Simple Sinner put it right about 'getting a feel for the traditions'. I think that one should not worry so much about this and that after converting, but just give themselves alot of time to absorb and/or to feel out the ethos of traditions. There are alot of different points of view, and one should allow their prayer and spiritual lives to allow them to grow rather than allow scrupulosity to overcome and stunt them...Once one reaches a certain spiritual maturity, if you will, after reading the lives of the saints, both fathers and more modern day, learning the words of all the services (which are the best forms of a catechism of Eastern theology that there is), etc., then they will see that all those different points of view, actually merge into a common and reconcilable ethos and tradition, and they will understand the East the way one who has grown up in it does.

As far as what PRJ mentioned about monastic counseling, I have heard the particular examples he cited many times, as they circulated as nauseum in Orthodox circles, forums, and jurisdictions, especially a particular one which is still against Athonite monasticism having come to U.S. shores.

I do not dispute that there may have been elements of truth in those examples, and certainly there may be some confessors who do not understand the married state because they cannot relate to it, just as there are those here and elsewhere who do not understand the celibate monastic state because they cannot relate to it.

Infact, understanding those who are different from us and who do not live our own experiences is a difficult task. Is the monastic who supposedly said those things any different, really, than the RC priest who tells his spiritual child that they are sinning because they cannot have more chidren? Does he understand their reality?

There are different confessors and priests in Orthodoxy as well as Catholicism, and if that confessor cannot feel out the spiritual maturity of the person they are counseling, then that person should search out another confessor who is more in tune to their realities, their struggles and their problems. Priests, whether celibate or married, are human beings and as such, are not all perfect--or they may be perfect for one person while not being perfect for the other!

What I have heard personally from someone, and as a fact rather than hearsay, is that some monastic elders give a little time off from holy communion after sexual relations, but NOT because they consider sexual relations sinful--but because the sin is that they are contracepting... and although 'economia' is sometimes given for this, it is not given that freely or without consequence. I have also heard that once the couple is over the age of fertility, this little time off here and there is completely forgotten because the intention of contraception is not involved. I see nothing wrong with this, and surely this should make our RC brethren happy that some Orthodox confessors are not that easy about contraception. On the other hand, there is another extreme pov in Orthodox confessionals, mostly in parishes, that basically says 'we don't get involved' or 'want to get involved' in a couple's bedroom at all.

I still say, God bless those men and women who have chosen a celibate life to honour and dedicate to God! THAT is Roman Catholic and that is Orthodox. St. John Krondstadt, one of the modern day great saints and mystics, was given in marriage, yet told his wife that they would live as brother and wife.

If one is to give his ALL to God, as he did, one needs to give their all. I am not threatened by that, I am in awe of it, and thankful for it...the prayers of such men and women have saved humanity.

In any case, I will conclude that as a culture, we worry about and think about sex WAY too much anyway.

In Christ,
Alice

PrJ:

IMHO, that's more than an opinion; it's a profound insight into the human condition.

I've often likened marriage to being two people living in a small closet wallpapered with 220 grit sandpaper. We tend to wound each other ever so slightly just by our close relationships. And I'm sure that the monastic life is much the same--lviign in close proximity with others, learning to adjust and defer to one another in love.

In Christ,

BOB

Some jurisdictions that were more readily accepting of conversions and then ordained men who had been laymen in Orthodoxy for minutes or days... They have felt the stress of that with a number of convert clergy taking a decidely more rigorous tone and interpretation of canons and theology than would normally have been the norm. Its a tough call to make how to proceed from there, but it is a concearn that sometimes needs to be looked at.

Alice, I tend to agree...

Now if you could just get "Mandy & Candy" to quit sending me daily emails to "come check out there dorm cams"... I could think about it less.

The other day I was doing an google image search for St. Helen and the first few "Helen" images to pop up were definately not that of a saint... My dad set up an AOL e-mail account for my grandmother (91 years old) to recieve digital photos of her great grandkids and nieces and nephews. A few weeks later, while helping her check it, he almost fell out of his chair when he saw the unsolicited (we hope!) emails offering discount Viagra online...

The less I try to think about it, the more it seems to think about me. Ah well.

Which is fine, since no person's experience or perception is going to match another's. My belief comes from things I've read here, things I've read from the history of the church, current views of both churches, and most importantly from my own experience both in the Orthodox Church and out of it. One of the strangest experiences I've had, and one that I had actually forgotten about until now, was a series of classes I attended about marriage at a parish I no longer attend. That one I believe I have attempted to wipe from my mind, because it was quite disturbing. One thing I will say about the convert issue, since it is being discussed here, is that they are in fact not just pulling things out of the air. They typically have very clear indications from the tradition of the church that their ideas make sense, though others may judge (and often rightly) that they take these things too far.

In the end, I am not threatened or bothered by the topic. I don't believe celibacy is a higher state than marriage, but I recognize that the path of celibacy is certainly a great sacrifice and a well worn path to a higher state of spirituality. To say it is intrinsically or objectively a higher state though, is something I would never accept. The first acts we see in Genesis were the creation of man and woman for each other, and the sanctification of their relationship.

Overall I find this topic an interesting one to reflect on when looking at the church, and it does make me re-evaluate things in a similar vein to something I read recently by Fr. John Meyendorff about the Dionysion spiritual hierarchy. Good food for thought!

Perhaps it is time once again to post Fr. Maximos of HRM's very excellent article on this issue that I have recourse to often in my college classes:
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2107

In light of the topic, I think that this article is useful:

http://www.orthodoxa.org/GB/orthodoxy/society/love.htm

I had never read that, thank you for posting that article! It is things like that article that have helped me greatly to make sense of the various viewpoints. Fr. John quotes from St. Symeon the New Theologian (whose writings I really like) the following

"Many regard the monastic way as the most blessed way. For my part, however, I would not set any way above the others ; nor would I praise one and depreciate another. But in every situation, it is the life lived for God and according to God that is entirely blessed."

That completely sums up what I think the heart of the matter is.

Evlogia Kyriou!

Dear Alice,

You write: "this thread is so 'deja vu'."

Who is it who famously said "it's deja vu all over again"?

Fr. Serge

P.S. Thanks for the compliment!

...I'm getting a vision of an Italian in pinstripes!

U-C

Bless, Father:

I believe that quote is usually attributed to Yogi Berra, may God bless him.

John

(Oops, didn't see U-C's post before I responded)

This was TRULY an excellent article! I also liked that it wasn't overtly philosophical and sentimental like the other article-

I also found interesting the point about the lack of lay ascetism presently found in the Latin Church, and how that makes the ascetic discipline required of the priest, extremely difficult.

Alice

Personally I disagree with the ft article on both celibacy and marriage.