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Joint Orthodox-Catholic commission agrees on primacy of Pope but differ on what that meansFr. John Zuhlsdorf A very interesting article was in The Canadian Press [ canadianpress.google.com]. My emphases. Vatican-Orthodox commission agrees on primacy of Pope; differ on significance
VATICAN CITY - A joint commission working to heal the 1,000-year split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches has agreed the Pope has primacy over all bishops but disagrees over just what that authority permits him to do.
The Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue reached the agreement during talks last month in Ravenna, Italy, according to a document being published Thursday.
The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches were united until the Great Schism of 1054, which was precipitated largely by disagreements over the primacy of the Pope.
Tensions remain strained over Orthodox accusations that the Vatican is seeking converts on traditionally Orthodox territories, particularly in eastern Europe � allegations that Rome denies.
Pope Benedict has said that uniting all Christians and healing the split is a "fundamental" priority of his pontificate.
The theological commission said it agreed in Ravenna that Rome occupied the "first place" in canonical order of the ancient seats of bishops � including Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.
The commission said it agreed "that the bishop of Rome was therefore the �protos� (first in ancient Greek) among the patriarchs."
"They disagree, however, on the interpretation of the historical evidence from this era regarding the prerogatives of the bishop of Rome as �protos,"� the commission�s document said.
"While the fact of primacy at the universal level is accepted by both East and West, there are differences of understanding with regard to the manner in which it is to be exercised, and also with regard to its scriptural and theological foundations," the document continued.
It said the role of the bishop of Rome � the Pope � in communion with other churches must be studied in greater depth.
The Oct. 8-15 meeting in Ravenna was the second since the Catholic-Orthodox theological dialogue resumed in 2006 after breaking off for six years.
The meeting was marred at the start when delegates from the Russian Orthodox Church walked out over a territorial dispute with a rival Orthodox church.
The Russian Orthodox representative who walked out, Bishop Ilarion, posted the commission�s final document on his website ahead of the official release Thursday. The Vatican confirmed its authenticity.
In his posting, Ilarion noted that the document was adopted without the presence of representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate at the meeting, casting doubt over whether it could be considered to reflect Moscow�s view.
"The Moscow Patriarchate will analyze the Ravenna document and present its conclusions in due course," the posting said. [ wdtprs.com]
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The article states the obvious and there is no disagreement on the concept of protos. As some like to say, the devil is in the details. In a word, it would appear that both both sides are still miles apart. The more things change, the more they remain the same!
Last edited by johnzonaras; 11/15/07 05:58 AM.
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VATICAN CITY - A joint commission working to heal the 1,000-year split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches has agreed the Pope has primacy over all bishops but disagrees over just what that authority permits him to do. One has to be careful when reading media like this. This particular one seems to have a Catholic spin on it. Here is the official Orthodox release ... http://www.uocofusa.org/news_071022_1.htmlunless I got my session number wrong (the 10th) ... I see nothing in the Orthodox release about it. The Orthodox have always admitted that Peter ... the first disciple that Jesus had called ... was honored with seniority. But I do not believe the Orthodox would ever agree to the word 'primacy'. Such a spin press release does not help the cause of unity at all. It is misleading. Perry Mason would call this 'assuming facts which are not in evidence.' But thanks for posting it. If anyone can find any Orthodox release that seems to support it (agreement on a Primacy) I would be interested. Peace be to all churches. -ray
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VATICAN CITY - A joint commission working to heal the 1,000-year split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches has agreed the Pope has primacy over all bishops but disagrees over just what that authority permits him to do. One has to be careful when reading media like this. This particular one seems to have a Catholic spin on it. Here is the official Orthodox release ... http://www.uocofusa.org/news_071022_1.htmlunless I got my session number wrong (the 10th) ... I see nothing in the Orthodox release about it. The Orthodox have always admitted that Peter ... the first disciple that Jesus had called ... was honored with seniority. But I do not believe the Orthodox would ever agree to the word 'primacy'. Such a spin press release does not help the cause of unity at all. It is misleading. But thanks for posting it. If anyone can find any Orthodox release that seems to support it (agreement on a Primacy) I would be interested. Peace be to all churches. -ray Ray, Can you clarify just where you are seeing "Catholic spin" here? Thanks. Gordon
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Ray,
Can you clarify just where you are seeing "Catholic spin" here?
Thanks.
Gordon Yes. It is a human tendency which effects us all. Its motivation is sincere and pious. It effects how we interpret what we see or read. Perhaps I should not have used the word 'spin' as that implies a knowing manipulation. Believe me ... although I have come to recognize certain mistakes on the part of my own church (RCC) and Papal Primacy and Infallibility being the most damaging ... I do not see a knowing conspiracy. What I witness is just how human our hierarchy (any hierarchy) is. I apologize for the word 'spin' but I did not know what else to use. I have now spent at least a month on investigating and researching the rise of the dogmas (Primacy and Infallibility) and the evidence is overwhelming that both are a mistake and misunderstanding. I have posted bits of my study of Matt 16 but I have not posted anything on my study from Plato to Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica - where - such a concept of infallibility (as set forth by the RC) defies Catholic theology (at least up to Summa Theologica). There is a contradiction between Catholic mystical theology (St John of the Cross) and Papal Infaliability. -ray
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I too initially thought the media report had added the term "primacy", but if you note, it does quote the commission thusly:
"While the fact of primacy at the universal level is accepted by both East and West, there are differences of understanding with regard to the manner in which it is to be exercised, and also with regard to its scriptural and theological foundations"
So unless the media report actually misquoted the document, it does seem that both sides agreed to the term "primary" (at the universal level).
Personally, I think this is an advance. Not because I think it changes either the historic Catholic or Orthodox positions, but because it helps to clarify to some "rank-and-file" that the Orthodox Church does accept a form of primacy for the Pope. Just not the form currently practiced by Rome.
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Ray, I have now spent at least a month on investigating and researching the rise of the dogmas (Primacy and Infallibility) and the evidence is overwhelming that both are a mistake and misunderstanding. I have posted bits of my study of Matt 16 but I have not posted anything on my study from Plato to Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica - where - such a concept of infallibility (as set forth by the RC) defies Catholic theology (at least up to Summa Theologica). There is a contradiction between Catholic mystical theology (St John of the Cross) and Papal Infaliability. With all due respect to your studies, if the evidence is "overwhelming", as you say, then it would be surprising that so many people who have spent years, even decades (not just a month) studying this would come to a different conclusion than you. Note that although I personally disagree with your conclusion, I'm not arguing that here. I'm just saying that it would do well not to come to such sweeping conclusions in such a short period of study. We must all realize that each "side" has very valid, and well-thought-out, reasons for their particular position. If the evidence were truly "overwhelming", we would not have a thousand-year-old split between our Churches.
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The part I would see as "spin" is this: A joint commission working to heal the 1,000-year split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches has agreed the Pope has primacy over all bishops but disagrees over just what that authority permits him to do. The first see has primacy among the patriarchates, not primacy over them. It is a small but important distinction.
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Nothing new that I read here...the Orthodox have always recognized a primacy...the difference between the churches is what "primacy" means...
That being said...I think this a good article for widespread distribution since it gets discussions going...I await the next session to see what happens when the details regarding "primacy" are dealt with...that to me, should be interesting...
Chris
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With all due respect to your studies, if the evidence is "overwhelming", as you say, then it would be surprising that so many people who have spent years, even decades (not just a month) studying this would come to a different conclusion than you. Great men have come to differing conclusions on the subject. I am just one of them.  Sorry - I could not resist the joke. I am no one of any importance. -ray
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Ray,
I agree with the sentiment that Francis expressed. These things rarely are a "shazaam" moment, especially regarding an issue as complex and historically determined as the nature and exercise of papal primacy. Even people with whom I disagree on these issues, like Todd, Andrew and Joe, still wrestled through the issues and their implications for a lot longer than 30 days before announcing to the whole world: "Everything I've believed is wrong!"
The point is that it probably is a good idea to take take a posture of waiting, prayerful discernment and continuing study, which it sounds like you are doing. The fact remains that you could be missing things that you have not considered before.
I for one would recommend trying to locate a copy of Apostolikos Thronos by Fr. Vincent Twoney. (It is his doctoral dissertation done at Regensburg under a certain Professor Ratzinger with whom we are all now intimately familiar!) He compares the thought of Eusebius and Athanasius regarding the Petrine primacy and the Church of Rome. I also recommend the book, "The Bishop of Rome" by Fr. Tillard. It examines the history and theology of the definition of papal primacy at Vatican I.
Again, clearly I have an opinion here. But once I thought I was wrong, and I was mistaken.
Just my two cents.
God bless,
Gordo
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From the article: A joint commission working to heal the 1,000-year split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches has agreed the Pope has primacy over all bishops but disagrees over just what that authority permits him to do. . . . This comment in the article is inaccurate, because there is nothing in the Ravenna Document that supports the idea that the pope has primacy over all the bishops. In fact, this idea is contrary to the doctrine of primacy as it was understood in the first millennium. Primacy only exists within synodality, and no bishop is over any other bishop, but all bishops (and Churches) are sacramentally equal.
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sad enough, since Vatican II and the misinterpretation of "collegiality," that followed it concerning diocesan Bishops. There exists Bishops in the Catholic church who do not submit to the full, supreme, and immediate authority of the Bishop of Rome.
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There exists Bishops in the Catholic church who do not submit to the full, supreme, and immediate authority of the Bishop of Rome. Would it not be more accurate to say that there are bishops in the Catholic church who do not submit to the full, supreme, and immediate authority of Christ? It is ultimately to Christ that any bishop (anyone, actually, but especially a bishop) will have to answer for failing to promote the true faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles. It is important to remember that faith does not come from any catechism, magisterial pronouncement or even the Church Fathers--although all of these can be helpful to strenghthen and nourish our faith. Faith is first is first and foremost a gift of God. Peace, Deacon Richard
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Dear Todd,
However, there are Orthodox Churches where the primate/patriarch is just as "papal" as the Pope of Rome.
And others where this is not the case.
Ecclesiological view this or that, the praxis that exists in this respect in various churches appear to have a life of their own irrespectively.
Your servant,
Alex
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