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Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Gordo,

Certainly decisions are not made by papal fiat. The holy canons require consensus, and not a strong man who forces his private views on others. In other words, the pope has simply one vote at an ecumenical council, and all the other bishops are his equal, because the order of episcopacy is one and the same, although spread across the earth in many places.

Todd

P.S. - I find it interesting that the Ravenna Document does not say that a council is ecumenical simply because it has papal approval; instead, it speaks about a process of acceptance by the whole Church, hierarchy and laity together.

Todd,

But my question is, how does one define consensus? Also, it still does not address the point about the participation (or lack thereof) of all or some of the Patriarchal Sees.

Yves Congar did a study on the theology of reception. I recall reading it in a seminary library one day, but for the life of me I cannot recall the name of the text. Have you run across it in your research? Any idea of the title?

God bless,

Gordo
No, I have read his book on the Temple, and I also read what he had to say about the filioque; the former text was interesting, but the latter text was disappointing, because like most Westerners he was unable to understand why the East rejects the filioque.

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The Temple?

I'm interested...I'll have to look that one up. Thanks!

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Gratzi!

Ordered.

Gordo

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Originally Posted by Fr J Steele CSC
Hate it if you must, John. But be consistent. You cant have it both ways.

Fr. Steele,

First, please accept my apology if I have insulted you. I enjoy a fightras much as the next guy, but I don't mean to insult people and especially not a priest.

Second, I'm not against unity; I just have a different definition of it. I think unity can include just getting along with each other. In the village where I worship, there is a Roman Catholic parish, a Byzantine Catholic parish, and an Eastern Orthodox parish. Everyone gets along --heck, almost everyone is someone's relative or inlaw-- while still respecting our religious differences. That's what I mean.

Third, I wish you well -- including in your attempts at reconciling Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Maybe it will result in a formal reunion of the Churches; and maybe not; but hopefully it will produce better understanding of each other and better regards.

-- John

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Originally Posted by harmon3110
I think unity can include just getting along with each other. In the village where I worship, there is a Roman Catholic parish, a Byzantine Catholic parish, and an Eastern Orthodox parish. Everyone gets along --heck, almost everyone is someone's relative or inlaw-- while still respecting our religious differences. That's what I mean.
John,

"Just getting along with each other" is an essential prerequisite to full unity. As we have seen in this thread, East and West were estranged long before the formal schism, and putting an end to that estrangement must come before--not after--formal reunion.

(Of course, "Just getting along with each other" is also a fundamental component of Christian charity and the witness we are called to give to all nations ...)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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Dear Friends,

The view, often expressed universally, that people have been killed for theology/religion is simply NONSENSE.

People have been killed for material concerns whereby killers have hidden behind religion to somehow justify their actions and/or motivate others to volunteer for their armies they need to get their job done.

This is a separate discussion. But as someone who has studied the sociology of religion for a few years - and I started out as idealistic in this as others, ready to beat my breast as a Christian to say "I am guilty too!" - there is no evidence that people were killed for religion apart from the much more important material gains that were to be had as a result of their deaths.

Alex, OSGC

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Bless, Father!

(and bless your football team!)

Perhaps "proof" of universal jurisdiction is not to be had primarily in the statements of the Roman Pontiffs but in terms of who obeyed them or were ready to accept that jurisdiction.

We know that Alexandria, whose primates were called "popes" when the Bishop of Rome was referred to as "His Beatitude" and whose immediate jurisdiction did not cover all of Italy itself, also asserted quite significant claims to jurisdiction, as did the "Ecumenical Patriarch" whose ecumenicity was never acknowledged by Rome which chastised him for using such a term.

Again, the fact that Roman Popes, even saints, asserted universal jurisdiction would be meaningless if other Patriarchs, in communion with him at the time, did not accept it, or else ignored it.

A better question, it seems, would be to show how many times did the Pope of Rome intervene in the life of the Eastern Churches (when they were in full communion) and the results of that intervention in jurisdictional terms. That Rome was the final court of appeal in the East and that the East even "needed" such a final court (and supported it wildly, as the documents of the Sixth Council - although going after Honorius at the same time - bear out), this does not mean the East would admit of a Roman jurisdiction over its internal affairs (something which would definitely challenge church order apart from cases when a given Patriarch would call upon Rome as an arbiter).

In any event, even when Rome makes pronouncements today, the EC Churches are obliged to interpret these for their faithful as it is assumed that the Patriarchs are partners with the Pope in governing the EC Churches and ensuring that whatever Rome says or does is interpreted in accordance with the Eastern traditions.

One case in point is the Immaculate Conception - a dogma in the West intended to assert that the Mother of God was conceived in holiness and without the stain of original sin.

But such a dogma is rather meaningless in the East given how the East understands original sin. In order for the IC dogma to be meaningful, the East would have to adopt the Augustinian view of original sin - which it will not do. So what Rome said on the IC had no relevance to EC Church faith as the Mother of God was always extolled as Most Holy, All-Holy and her Conception was liturgically celebrated in the East since the 6th century (and only the feasts of Saints may be celebrated, as we know, so this meant, liturgically, the she was a Saint at Her Conception).

Hope you are enjoying the game.

Alex

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Alex,

So far there is nothing to get excited about with the game. But, I have immensely enjoyed and learned from you last two posts on this thread.

Fr. J.

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Bless, Father!

And I ask your prayers as I prepare for my Benedictine oblation this month!

Your Founder has been a particular favourite patron of mine and I wish you every blessing from On High in your pastoral work in fulfilling the Mission to which he, and yourself, have been called.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Fr J Steele CSC
Alex,

So far there is nothing to get excited about with the game. But, I have immensely enjoyed and learned from you last two posts on this thread.

Fr. J.

Alex is indeed a storage house of knowledge, and he is also a charitable and respectful gentleman-- well, most of the time! smile

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Originally Posted by Alice
Alex is indeed a storage house of knowledge, and he is also a charitable and respectful gentleman-- well, most of the time! smile

Alice

Indeed he is!

Alex ... please mention us in your prays.

-ray




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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Bless, Father!

And I ask your prayers as I prepare for my Benedictine oblation this month!

Your Founder has been a particular favourite patron of mine and I wish you every blessing from On High in your pastoral work in fulfilling the Mission to which he, and yourself, have been called.

Alex


Alex,

Thanks for your kind words about Blessed Basil Moreau. How do you know of him? Admittedly, he has been rather obscur here in the US until very recently.

I will pray for your Benedictine oblation, though I admit that I am not sure exactly what that means. Do fill me in.

I may limit my postings here for a bit. I am not happy with what my participation has brought out in me.

Blessed Day of the Lord to all.

Fr. J.

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Originally Posted by Fr J Steele CSC
I may limit my postings here for a bit. I am not happy with what my participation has brought out in me.

Fr. J.

Oh ... don't let that stop you. The only time to stop is when you notice posting becoming an addiction.

We have all embarrassed ourselves from time to time. Or gotten angry and snippy. What you do then is apologies and ask the other to forgiveness. Take that teaspoon of humility. It is a difficult thing to be human.

We are also allowed to take positions here that we may not actually hold in real life.

Friends are allowed to be wrong. Friends are allowed to make mistakes. Friends are allowed to speak from feelings and not from brains.

We all do these things here. Like a group that gets together for coffee and snacks weekly.

I have enjoyed the energy of your postings here. I have no clue if I have agreed with you or not ... but you have made many of us think and look things up and such. You are not bland .. and that is good. It appears that others have made .. you .. think also.

This forum is a most unusual forum you will ever find. And populated with kind and charitable people who are very human. It is, if you ask me, the churches united in heart and spirit.

I would assume that I am not the only one here who would say that you are welcome here and please .. do not go away.

-ray

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