www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Edition of the Divine Liturgy

Not that it matters much to anyone here...

But, I attended a Ruthenian parish for about a year under the old liturgy and wanted very much to switch rites after much consideration. To make a long story short, the new liturgy was a deal breaker for me, but happily, I live in ATL and am close to a Melkite parish on Ponce de Leon. So, Fr. Serge's news is most welcome.

However, I warn everyone now: by my involvement with any eastern church, the chances of them switching to a gender inclusive, modernist liturgy goes up exponentially. I'm a walking curse. If you are a Greek Catholic reading this and want to save your liturgy, send me a lot of money in Euros

Seriously, I'm curious as to which of the parishes appears "healthier": The one that has stuck to tradition, or the other which has made compromises not always reflective of the best of its rich heritage. The Melkite church in Athens (a city close to ATL) is supposed to be a magnet for converts. Maybe the learned fathers of the Ruthenian liturgical commission might probe more deeply into the relationship between evangelization and traditional liturgy. The young woman I met who was a member of the Melkite church didn't seem to have any issues with the received formulations and prayers.

What I see in ATL are a bunch of people in my age category (mid-30s) who've no community and are socially isolated. This is a phenomenon caused by any number of factors, but it appears to me that many people would gladly accept membership in an "ethnic" parish in order to gain what the broader American society cannot offer anymore (if it in fact ever did).

Dear Sultan,

URKHAN! And if that puzzles you as a Ukrainian -speaker what it refers to.

If someone gives you lots of euros, do move to Dublin. We serve the Divine Liturgy without abbreviation, don't use English, and follow the Julian Calendar. Either you will come to love us, or you will flee in horror back to wherever!

Fr. Serge

What is the language spoken in the home by most of the people who attend the liturgy? Is it not the practice of the east to serve the Divine Liturgy in the language of the people. If in Dublin, then Irish it would be I s'pose.
Surgei

That question belongs in the plural - this is a polyglot parish. At home the majority of the faithful probably speak Ukrainian; some would be apt to speak Russian. Others speak Irish; still others speak English, a few speak French and two or three enjoy using conversational Latin.

Fr. Serge

I'm not Ukrainian, although I dated one who refused to teach me the language. I like the sound of foreign languages and study German at the cultural center here.

If one studies the history of ethnic parishes in America, it becomes clear that the hierarchy of the Latin rite especially have hated the use of foreign tongues in worship. I just completed a graduate level course in American religious history and was appalled to see that Bp. Ireland was not the only one to have despised the teaching and use of German in parish schools and newspapers. So sad. Many do not realize that apart from theological tampering, foreign languages sharpen and broaden the mind in a good way.

I don't know much about the hierarchs of the Ruthenian Church here, but it seems to me their approach to the DL smacks of the American obsession with forced centralization. It's second nature to the natives, even if their parents were immigrants. The public sphere invades and penetrates everything, including worship, family life and education.

I'm more concerned about Fr. Deacon's points regarding the similarities between the Ruthenian and Greek reforms. Do the Melkite parishes have some leeway in how far they go with tradition? Might one discover that many parishes are very traditional (like yours Father) even though there is a minimalism present in the formal rubrics?

So come to Dublin and learn Irish, Ukrainian and Russian - all in the same church. I don't speak German, though I have friends who do. Someone once advised me that I needn't learn German, but if I should chance to learn German, I should then be sure to read Goethe.

John Ireland, may his name be blotted out, was also strenuously opposed to Irish. The only "foreign language" he seems to have been able to live with was Latin.

There is still a prejudice, based on the premise that in order to be a "real Ammurican" (mis-spelling is deliberate) one must abandon any language other than English. One result seems to be that the quality of English drops alarmingly.

I hesitate to comment on your question about "leedway in how far the Melkite parishes go with tradition" or whether some parishes are "very traditional even though there is a minimalism present in the formal rubrics" - not that the question is poor or off the point, but that it would be so easy for me to misunderstand it. At the risk of sounding Gnostic, perhaps I might suggest that the Byzantine liturgical tradition requires a quasi-instinctive sensitivity to what will somehow go with the flow, and what will be destructive. But that is a seriously dangerous premise to go on.

Fr. Serge

There is a great value in retaining the "old" languages in the
Liturgy, be the language Aramaic, Arabic, Slavonic, Ukrainian, Latin or whatever. For one thing it provides a sense of continuity with the past. For another, it tends to make us
less parochial. We need to be reminded that not all people everywhere at all times spoke and prayed just as we do. For another, modern American English is flat, dull, stale and unprofitable, being the product of Hollywood and Madison Avenue.

Edmac

I just have a quick question that I am sure some one here can answer: Is this New Divine Liturgy book that is out now "the" Divine Liturgy, or are we to ecpect future revisions? Should we purchase the book, or wait for the "next" and "improved" edition?

I say this a lot in this forum, but from your lips to God's ears! I personally would save my "peniaze," from the "mamon�r".

Just my two cents.....

Please do not come to the Orthodox Church. I'll pay you anything you want!!!

Seriously though, the gender neutral revised Liturgy was a serious problem for me and my family before our journey to Holy Orthodoxy. I was particularly concerned about my baby daughter growing up with such worldly compromises. There is no such gender inclusive nonsense in our Orthodox parish. Furthermore, half of the Liturgy is chanted in Church Slavonic. Children learn other languages very quickly when they are young and I expect my child will know Church Salvonic better than myself in the near future--I am please about that. Oh yeah, did I mention we are now on the old calendar? Glory be to God!

I do not believe the revision will last, but I do not know how long it will take to reverse the damage--perhaps a generation. I know that many letters were written to Rome by some very influential people. My letter was answered by the Vatican (but I am not influential) and they acknowledged receipt of my written discourse. But of course by the time I received the Vatican response, I was already Orthodox.

My prayers continue for the Ruthenian Catholics.

It's interesting that if you read the earlier posts in the forum there was much consternation (from me as well) that Slavonic would not be allowed in the new Liturgy since it was not in the new books already. The answer given was that the new books were already so big, to include anything in Slavonic would make them so much bigger some parishioners would need a crane to life them.

But just earlier, in the post about St. Nicholas, I was on the Cantor's Institute and there was an announcement about the release of the Liturgy in Slavonic. Does anyone know of any parishes that have purchased the newly issued Slavonic books? Or are some parishes still trying to get the money to buy the new RDL and can't even think of affording the newly issued Slavonic books as well? Just curious. I'm not trying to start anything. Nor am I slamming anyone or calling them names or disparaging anything they might have said. It was explained that it would be available, and it is. Now, who has them and have they used them? If so, what has the reaction been? Any reviews? Thoughts?

Tim

Tim,

It is the new RDL that was translated from English into Slavonic by someone from Philadelphia.

Ung

U-C,

There would be no need to translate the RDL since it was translated from Slavonic. You would only need to print the Slavonic books with the RDL format.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Um, I thought the RDL was translated from Greek to English. Maybe I am wrong , but that was distinctly the impression I was given.

...meaning that it differs greatly from the 1942 Official Ruthenian Recension Slavonic edition that Rome authorized.
It includes the same abbreviations that the new English RDL has...

Ung