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Hello!


I left the Catholic Church about a year ago and am earnestly pondering to enter the Orthodox Church. However, this process is complicated by my doubts concerning the validity of second marriages. I mean, I would have no problem at all if the church would say: if you marry a second time, that�s your own business, but the teaching of the Church is immutable, we can�t run the marriage service here in Church a second time.

But that�s exactly what happens in Orthodoxy.

It is often argued that Basil, Chrysostom, Clemens Alexandria, Origen and some other fathers allowed for second marriages. But this is, to put it mildly, not even half the truth.

For instance, Basil and Clemens among the above named took a strong stance against remarriage even in case of adultery.

(A fine father-compilation can be found at:
http://www.marriagedivorce.com/mdfathers.htm; for Athenagoras, see: www.geocities.com/frneissen/Athenagoras-Origen.doc [geocities.com] ; you should be made shortly aquainted with the biblical problems, so read the two small texts copyright by John Piper here(google for other startling articles by him if interested):
www.geocities.com/frneissen/by-John-Piper.doc [geocities.com] )

Indeed, the only one of the early fathers allowing for a second marriage in case of adultery is Ambrosiaster, but he even excludes the woman from this permission and only grants it to man.

One often fails to differentiate between divorce and remarriage. Surely Chrysostom was ready to allow for divorce, but not so is the case with remarriage.

Again, the only of the early fathers is Ambrosiaster.


Well, let�s cite Basil:
�The woman who has been abandoned by her husband[that is, the woman not guilty of adultery!], ought, in my judgment, to remain as she is. The Lord said, �If any one leave his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, he causes her to commit adultery;� thus, by calling her adulteress, He excludes her from intercourse with another man. For how can the man being guilty, as having caused adultery, and the woman, go without blame, when she is called an adulteress by the Lord for having intercourse with another man?
A man who marries another man�s wife who has been taken away from him will be charged with adultery� �- Amphilochius 199 (a)


I�ve looked on the Internet for the supposedly plain statements of Basil and Origen where they explicitly allowed for a second marriage celebrated in the Church � but I couldn�t find any.

For instance, I read the following: �The Holy Basil the Great, for example, referred not to a rule but to usage, as far as this problem was concerned. Speaking concerning the man who had been cheated by his wife, he declares that the man is �pardonable� (to be excused) should he remarry.�

But this may be took wholly out of context. A long quotation is missing. But I would readily concur that if this was what Basil said, it would completely agree with his condemnation of remarriage, because he does not say that the one may marry in the Church, but just that a marriage(maybe civil?), when contracted, was perhaps a lesser evil.

The whole question I�m posing here is the following:

Did the early church celebrate second marriages in the church, were they blessed by the priest, as the Orthodox practise today?

Well, let�s cite another passage I found on the Internet, again not the long quotation I yearn for, but just a brief claim:

�He[Origen] noted that Christ rejected "the opinion that a wife was to be put away for every cause,"8but he did not seem to rule out divorce completely. Indeed, he admitted that some church leaders "have permitted a (divorced) woman to marry, even when her husband was living," and he confessed that such permission was "not altogether without reason," being undoubtedly a lesser of evils.9�
(by the way, another passage on the Internet concerning this issue reads as follows: �On the subject of remarriage, Origen wrote, "Already contrary to scripture, certain Church leaders have permitted remarriage of a woman while her husband was alive." Origen then quotes 1 Corinthians 7:39 word perfect, "The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.")

Well, Well, Well�.. but did the bishops grant a marriage in the Church?? This is the only question of interest. That the bishop/presbyter in general should be consulted on questions of sex- and family-life was not unusual in such times, consider, for instance, Ignatius:
�If any man is able in power to continue in purity, to the honour of the flesh of our Lord, let him continue so without boasting; if he boasts, he is undone; if he become known apart from the bishop, he has destroyed himself. It is becoming, therefore, to men and women who marry, that they marry with the counsel of the bishop, that the marriage may be in our Lord, and not in lust. Let everything, therefore, be done for the honour of God." Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 5 (A.D. 110).


Okay, here again is my main question:
Did the early church celebrate second marriages in the church, were they blessed by the priest, as the Orthodox practise today, or was this incorporation of formerly only civilly/legally performed second marriages into the rite of the Church a later development, yeah, deviation from the thinking of the Fathers?


Well, all the Orthodox out there: Fetch me from the snares of Protestantism(the only alternative left).


Please don�t indulge in polemical or superfluous reactions but condescend to offer scientifically sound explainations. I�ll also post this topic on CatholicAnswers to hopefully secure many helpful answers.


Yours,
Frederik





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�If any man is able in power to continue in purity, to the honour of the flesh of our Lord, let him continue so without boasting; if he boasts, he is undone; if he become known apart from the bishop, he has destroyed himself. It is becoming, therefore, to men and women who marry, that they marry with the counsel of the bishop, that the marriage may be in our Lord, and not in lust. Let everything, therefore, be done for the honour of God." Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 5 (A.D. 110).

This is a very interesting passage.

Many Christians say that anything goes in marriage, but that is wrong thinking. Here the bishop counsels that marriage must be pure and not lustful. Indeed, marriage is the beginning and foundation of a domestic church. And the Byzantine Dance of Isaiah tells us that marriage is martyrdom and if we succeed, then we will inherit the crown of salvation.

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Our beloved Alex will soon comment in this thread saying that since there are so many annulments in the Catholic Church, there's really no difference of opinion on the matter between our two Communions, with the possible exception being that the Catholic Church is intellectually dishonest...

I've heard it a million times. wink

In all serious, though; obviously from a Catholic perspective the Eastern Orthodox have deviated from the Faith handed down to us when it comes to things like contraception and divorce.

Alexis

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Frederik,

There are no scientifically sound explanations on this matter. This whole issue was on the agenda at Vatican II, but the Latin Bishops chose not to open this can of worms. Modern Roman Catholic thinking seems to favor the Orthodox understanding, but it is still too controversial. In practice, there are divorced and civil remarried Roman Catholics receiving communion with leadership positions in the parish and even serving as regular Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. The only significant difference from the Orthodox is that the practice is not currently approved by Rome.

Sacramental Marriage began as a civil marriage that was later consecrated by the Church and then developed the singular form administered by the Church alone. The Church also recognized pure civil marriages � even �adulterous� civil remarriages after a period of excommunication and penance. The Orthodox maintain this ancient and best practice of only one Sacramental Marriage.

Second Sacramental Marriages are not allowed except in the case of a real annulment due to outright fraud. An Orthodox or even Eastern Catholic marriage cannot be theologically annulled any more than the Body and Blood can be turned back into bread and wine. A second or even third civil marriage granted by the Orthodox goes through a serious tribunal more or less equal to the modern Latin annulments. The second or even third marriage is a mercy granted by Church and should be a small private and penitential service without a big party. I am sure that some modern Orthodox churches abuse this power and allow big second marriages, but it is still an abuse.

That the Roman Catholics allow a second Sacramental Marriage after an annulment is a serious deviation from the Tradition of the Church. Annulments are for a marriage that was entered fraudulently. Latins that grant annulments after 10 or 20 years of living as husband and wife with children is simply an abuse of power.

So, yes, in the early Church a priest blessed second civil marriages, but it would not be a �celebration� or a Sacrament. A blessing is not the same as a Sacrament � the Holy Spirit is not invoked as it would be when a man and woman are transformed into one by a priest. When you are blessed with holy water or anointed with holy oil you are not re-Baptized or re-Confirmed!

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Theophilus said: Modern Roman Catholic thinking seems to favor the Orthodox understanding, but it is still too controversial.

Thinking, not teaching. Thinking in a manner, by the way, very much against the Tradition of the Church. It is no more acceptable for a Catholic than any other heretical belief.

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Theophilus said: In practice, there are divorced and civil remarried Roman Catholics receiving communion with leadership positions in the parish and even serving as regular Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist.

It should be of no surprise that abuses are widespread in Roman Catholicism. I would venture to guess that the vast majority don't find any of this problematic, but just because most people don't find issue with it doesn't mean it is somehow officially sanctioned or understood as being kosher. And not every parish, by any means, allows these shenanigans to go on. At my parish divorced people are barred from Communion, for however long it takes to have an annulment granted, if one ever is.

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Theophilus said: That the Roman Catholics allow a second Sacramental Marriage after an annulment is a serious deviation from the Tradition of the Church.

What? You must misunderstand the nature of an annulment. "Second Sacramental Marriages" are not allowed nor practiced in the Catholic Church. Such things do not even exist except one partner repose and the other later marry again. I suppose that would be a "second Sacramental Marriage."

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Theophilus said: Annulments are for a marriage that was entered fraudulently.

No, annulments are statements that a marriage never existed at all.

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Theophilus said: Latins that grant annulments after 10 or 20 years of living as husband and wife with children is simply an abuse of power.

Certainly some (probably many) annulments are "abuses of power" in some respect, but just because a man and a woman live together and raise children together over a number of years doesn't mean that they are or were ever indeed sacramentally married. And that is what annulments tribunals do: look into whether or not that was the case. If it is, a Decree of Nullity/annulment is granted.

Just because the system is abused by many today does not somehow invalidate the beliefs behind it. This seems to be a common misconception.

Alexis




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You tell em Alexis! Theophilus doesnt seem to have a clue as to what Roman Catholic Church teaches.
Stephanos I

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Many Christians say that anything goes in marriage, but that is wrong thinking. Here the bishop counsels that marriage must be pure and not lustful. Indeed, marriage is the beginning and foundation of a domestic church. And the Byzantine Dance of Isaiah tells us that marriage is martyrdom and if we succeed, then we will inherit the crown of salvation.

Oh, dear.

I prefer to interpret that as 'don't try to marry somebody you have no right to' like somebody already sacramentally married and not widowed.

Not holding up some awful ideal of a sexless (let's pretend we're monks and nuns) or passionless (don't enjoy it; it's only to procreate) marriage!

Anyway...

I appreciate the reason for the Eastern (assuming the Oriental communion and Assyrian Church like with other matters shares the rule of the Orthodox) discipline on church divorce and remarriage - not to swing modern American fashion (serial marriages) but so the wronged party in adultery, abuse or abandonment (like if the other party gets life in prison) and any children don't suffer and die without a spouse/parent to take care of them.

And I know that the difference is not a bone of contention with Rome historically. It's pre-schism and the Melkites and possibly the Ukrainians kept the Orthodox practice for centuries after joining Rome.

But the theory behind it has never made sense to me.

'The first marriage is eternal, but in some situations we can bless adultery.' What?

It's well-known that annulments have been abused like hell in America in recent decades particularly by the rich and powerful (the Kennedys, and Rudy Giuliani who conveniently got his and his second wife's first marriages dissolved) but the principle is still sound.

I remember reading somewhere that either in the whole Roman Catholic Church in America or one diocese in one year in the 1930s the total of annulments was... nine.

Now it's ridiculous.

I've no problem with divorce - certainly I don't say 'stay in the marriage and let Sam beat you; it's God's will!' The problem is when one wants to remarry.

If there's no church divorce or legit annulment (depending on which side of the Bosporus you're on) you've got to bear your cross.

The same message from the Pope today as from the church fathers.

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At my parish divorced people are barred from Communion, for however long it takes to have an annulment granted, if one ever is.

Garrett:

With all due respect, if this is, indeed, the case, it is itself a very serious abuse of the Church's practice and the parish pastor's authority. If one is divorced and does not date or remarry outside the Church, he or she IS NOT barred from the sacraments. And anyone teaching otherwise is not teaching what the Catholic Church teaches. This particular question has been answered time and again in official and unofficial fora within the Church since the new Code of Canon Law came out in 1983. Clarification has followed clarification because it used to be that people were told that this was Church teaching. But it simply is not.

BOB

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Bob,

You're absolutely right! I worded my post poorly. The people in question have indeed re-married without first seeking an annulment and are thusly barred from Communion.

Sorry to give the other impression; I am, however, aware of the rules! It seems I just wasn't clear in my post.

Rather than saying "divorced people" I should have said "divorced and re-married people."

Alexis

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With all due respect to all who have posted here, I think that threads titled in this way are provocative and not within the ususal bounds of charity. We ought to seek ways in which to explore issues and practices without setting up each other in a combative way.

I have a rather ambivalent attitude toward this issue--not to say I agree with divorce or some type of Churhc blessing on another--because of the families I work with and the interesting histories I learn along the way.

There is a case I know of--know all the parties well--where a woman had an affair, got a divorce, got an annulment in the Latin Church, and then married the man with whom she'd been having the affair. She continues in lay ministry.

But I've come to the point where I figure I have enough to answer for myself at the Judgment that I'll admonish those in my biological family and keep the rest to myself. I don't have to answer for these kinds of abuses.

As for "Did the East deviate. . .?" I don't think so. In each situation the Church has come to terms with human weakness and needs. They are assessed in different ways with a pastoral eye. The Lord is about mercy as well as strict justice.

In Christ,

BOB

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I find this obsession about second marriages troubling. I doubt very seriously that anyone who's been divorced would have the strength to deny a fantastic marriage partner on the basis of the holy fathers possible intransigence (they were brilliant men but also human and their cultural baggage can't be discounted either.)which leaves the happily married and never married to oh so smugly proclaim against remarriages.

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Indigo,

With all respect, what other Church Teachings do not suit your fancy?

Alexis

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Though I would agree with Bob that the title of this thread (and many other here) is perhaps overly provocative.

Alexis

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Originally Posted by theophan
With all due respect to all who have posted here, I think that threads titled in this way are provocative and not within the ususal bounds of charity. We ought to seek ways in which to explore issues and practices without setting up each other in a combative way...

As for "Did the East deviate. . .?" I don't think so. In each situation the Church has come to terms with human weakness and needs. They are assessed in different ways with a pastoral eye. The Lord is about mercy as well as strict justice.

In Christ,

BOB

With this excellent post, we have decided to close this combative thread...

Alice, Moderator


Moderated by  theophan 

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