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Originally Posted by Tim Herman
Recluse,

You sound exactly like me. I am a cradle Roman Catholic who found the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church and fell in love. In my case this was initially through my Russian language and cultural studies. Since then, I have become more and more Orthodox in orientation, in faith, and in practice, and now am preparing for reception into the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,

Timothy
We may resist at times, but there is no stopping the journey. When we are called, we must listen. smile

God bless you,
Recluse

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Originally Posted by Altar Boy
I'm sorry. I guess I misunderstood the term "rubrics". I am speaking about the modernism which has been incorporated in our Divine Liturgy. The Roman Church is already a MESS from the hijacking and trashing of their Liturgy by certain folks within the VII hierarchy.

Now I have to listen to the Creed being changed, the subtle changes in the wording of the Liturgy, and I have heard some here state that such changes are a danger to my very soul. If that is true -- a big if -- then why would God allow changes which endanger the souls of the sheep for whom He died?

I have been reading some Traditionalist Latin literature online, which included a side by side comparision of the wretched Novus Ordo "liturgy" and the quite beautiful wording of the Traditional Latin Mass. Don't these people in the Roman Church "get it?" Especially those old enough to remember the TLM.

I am going to visit a TLM next week. We have had one in this area for a couple of years. I just need to hear what it sounds like, see the wording, and most of all, think and pray.

If this makes me a troublemaker, so be it.

I just hope some here might realize that I am having some serious distress here, and I am not trying to be combative, rude, or a troublemaker.

Brother Ed

Brother Ed:

your post does not come across as combative or rude. I know from your post that you are experiencing a crisis. However (and no offense to the fellow posters), this forum is not the place to seek the proper spiritual counsel for your dilemma, no matter how well-intentioned we may be. You need to seek the counsel of your confessor or spiritual director.

God does care... sometimes we cannot see that He does...


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In all fairness, many did not like the "new" Mass, and many just put up with it, as you say -- but many do like it and for many people 40 and under it is really the only Mass they have ever known.

I honestly know many more Roman Catholics who like the "new" Mass than who do not like it. Most of my friends are Catholics who have never been to a Latin Mass, Novus Ordum or Tridentine. But they regularly attend Mass and are heavily involved in their parishes with their spouses and kids.

Personally, I prefer the Tridentine Latin Mass because I think it is beautiful and a beautiful form of worship holds my attention better. But it was never really in common usage in my lifetime, it was always the "new" Mass. My husband prefers the "new" Mass. And he prefers English.

With the revised Divine Liturgy, most of the changes really don't seem like they were worth all the effort to me. I'm still following along with the same 1948 family heirloom edition of the Liturgy that I inherited and that I will continue to use. (It doesn't say the exact same thing as the books we just phased out, either.)



Originally Posted by Diak
Quote




In recent Church history we can look at the Pauline Mass, the Novus Ordo or whatever you want to call it...


.

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I just want to say thank you for this thread. A lot of what Brother Ed posted reflects my thoughts lately and some of the things I am wrestling with. A lot of the responses to the OP have helped me too and given me some things to think about.

thank you.

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For what it's worth--you're welcome! I don't know how long you have been a member of this board or how many times you have posted, but it's good to hear from everyone, regardless of how they feel. Don't be afraid to ask questions, play devil's advocate or simply admit your feelings, no matter what they are. Our Lord commanded us to love one another--he didn't say only if we agree with them. So in the spirit of Christianity--please post more comments and ask more questions! You are among family here. And sometimes family doesn't always agree. And there's usually one or more family members that are sort of kept in the background, so to speak. I am the youngest of seven kids and we're all pretty smart. Except for my sister Elaine, we don't talk about her much. (Just kidding!)

Tim

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Originally Posted by tjm199
For what it's worth--you're welcome! I don't know how long you have been a member of this board or how many times you have posted, but it's good to hear from everyone, regardless of how they feel. Don't be afraid to ask questions, play devil's advocate or simply admit your feelings, no matter what they are. Our Lord commanded us to love one another--he didn't say only if we agree with them. So in the spirit of Christianity--please post more comments and ask more questions! You are among family here. And sometimes family doesn't always agree. And there's usually one or more family members that are sort of kept in the background, so to speak. I am the youngest of seven kids and we're all pretty smart. Except for my sister Elaine, we don't talk about her much. (Just kidding!)

Tim

Tim,

Thank you for that. I have other questions swirling around in my mind that I've been wanting to ask, but I haven't partly b/c I don't want to ask the same question that's probably been asked about a million times before, and also b/c I don't want to appear dumb, though that's just pride speaking and I shouldn't be prideful.

If I can not find the answer using the search feature, I will take your advice and post!

Andrea

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Thanks right back at you. I haven't used the search function, but I've heard it can be a bit tricky. So if you don't find something, don't worry about asking it because it might have been asked already.

And never feel a question is stupid, dumb or anything else. The only dumb question is the one left unasked. Ask, ask, ask! Someone will help you. We actually are a friendly bunch, regardless of how it may appear on some threads. We also all have something in common--the knowledge that Jesus loves us and wants us to do the right thing. The trick is in knowing what the right thing is!

Tim

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Originally Posted by AndreaW
I have other questions swirling around in my mind that I've been wanting to ask, but I haven't


Andrea,

Just go ahead and ask. smile

-- John

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Originally Posted by Altar Boy
I just hope some here might realize that I am having some serious distress here, and I am not trying to be combative, rude, or a troublemaker.

Brother Ed, Sounds like you need to speak to a spiritual director, not a public forum. It is one thing to discuss issues, it is another to expose one's soul out of the confessional. I know it is a fine line, but I think Catholics should make use of what their Church DOES offer - spiritual guidance.

last night I was shopping at a grocery store. A woman and her daughter (I guess of age five) were shopping with grandma. The girl was mis-behaving and her mother didn't approve of her ... rubrics. Instead of taking the girl to the side and having a mother-to-daughter talk, she instead scolded her out loud and took up space in the aisles. Grandma just kept to herself. Whenever the mother scolded her daughter and then would whine to her mother (grandma) she would quickly glance around to see if anyone was listening or watching. BOTH needed attention and both needed guidance. Unfortunately, grandma didn't bother to have a talk with BOTH children. The mother was also rude - sneezing without covering her mouth and then handling produce. The grand-daughter would sit in the aisles forcing other customers to go around them or turn back the other way. But i couldn't get over the fact that the mother kept looking around to see if anyone was watching or listening to her dilemma. We all have different tastes (and so buy what brands we want over others) but certain dilemmas regarding messy rubrics or behavior should be taken care of one-to-one. The grocery store customers could not take it upon themselves to affectively remedy what was a deep personal problem both were experiencing. I agree with the deacon above. it is probably more than just dealing with issues that people may disagree with. If you think your salvation is at stake then i would recommend thta you make use of the available (and FREE) resources that your church has to offer. call you pastor or spiritual director now.

Eddie Hashinsky

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Originally Posted by Altar Boy
I hope you realize that some of us, perhaps weaker in faith than others, struggle with some real and very serious temptations to despair.

To go forward with faith in the face of very serious doubts is itself very strong faith.

Don't give up.

Keep practicing your religion.

Work through the doubt, like working through the stiffness in a physical workout.

And you will know peace.

-- John

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Originally Posted by Altar Boy
I have been reading some Traditionalist Latin literature online, which included a side by side comparision of the wretched Novus Ordo "liturgy" and the quite beautiful wording of the Traditional Latin Mass. Don't these people in the Roman Church "get it?" Especially those old enough to remember the TLM.
I am old enough to remember the TLM as you call it. I called it Mass when I was young.

Don't get too involved with the traditionalists. Many of them are heretics and schismatics themselves- sedevacantists etc. They long for the old but ignore the papacy and the councils. They think they are better than the pope and the councils. Wrong! Remember the Holy Spirit is guiding the church.
If something seems wrong with the Novus Ordo, it is a misunderstanding, a change in emphahsis or the rules are not being followed.

The Novus Ordo when done according to the rules is beautiful.
What distresses me is when the priests think they have to be creative. They are there for sacrifice not the creation.

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To Altar Boy -- and everyone else in this thread...
What an incredibly enlightening educational thread this has been! I realize it is "old news," since it started last year, but I am grateful I had the chance to read it.
I grew up Byzantine, then went to Latin Rite high school, (and college ) and taught for a while in a Latin Rite school -- One of my professors at Duquesne University (A protestant minister teaching Church History at a Catholic College) said to me: "The Church (the Catholic Church, specifically, ) HAS to be guided by the Holy Spirit -- There's no way it could have survived on its own with some of the leaders it has had!"
Take a look at St. Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews, ch.11 to 13. He speaks of faith. Ch. 13, the epistle for the feast of St. Nicholas, says: "Remember your leaders who spoke the Word...to you...Consider how their lives ended, and imitate their FAITH." --their Faith, not their mistakes.
The liturgy is a means to an end -- not an end in itself. Melkiteman, above, said it well: "remember, the Holy Spirit is guiding the church."

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maybe when the priests are in" persona of Christ" it gives them the power to do what they want during the Liturgy or during the Mass?
frown

Deanna


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