www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Incorrupt Eastern Saints

Hello;

Are there people here who have actually seen the incorrupt bodies of Eastern / Oriental Orthodox saints and of Eastern Catholic saints? I would like to have more information on these. The Internet is full of info (some accurate, some not) about incorrupt Roman Catholic saints, and I already own a book about western incorruptibles (that of Joan Carroll Cruz). What I'd like to know more about are Eastern "incorruptibles."

If all the talk in various Eastern websites is true, there seem to be more real "incorruptibles" (i.e. not merely bones in wax or embalmed bodies wrongly thought of as incorrupt) in the East than in the West. Or is the West simply stricter, more demanding and more "scientific" in its approach? Just asking...

If you've seen these marvels of God's grace, please relate us what you've seen. I'm interested in particular in "myrrh-streaming" relics. (Are they for real? Just asking. In the Roman West, what we have are blood-streaming relics. Oddly enough, the same can be said of our icons: Miraculous Roman icons and statues generally weep blood or human tears, Eastern icons tend to stream myrrh.)

Links to photographs if not actual photos (save those of St. John Maximovitch and those on orthodoxphotos, which I've already seen) will also be appreciated.

I've seen many other pictures of "incorrupt" Eastern saints but they are always veiled, you can't see anything save for the occasional finger sticking out. ..

Here is the Wikipedia entry on Incorruptibles, and there is a long list of them at the end of the article. Many are Eastern saints: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibles

Alexis

St Lazar of Serbia's body is incorrupt and a picture is found in the St Herman of Alaska publication about his life and Service.

The Kyivan Caves Lavra Saints are incorrupt as are many Saint of Mt Athos (if not all of them).

Incorruptibility is very important to the Eastern Churches as a way to indicate that God has glorified His Saints (thus the differences between East and West here - in the West the emphasis is on a canonization process that can be a very human, logical thing, whereas the East looks for evidence that God has glorified His Saint and therefore we simply do what God has already done in Heaven etc.).

On Mt Athos, as Met. Ilarion Ohienko discusses in his book on Canonization in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, monastcs who have reposed are buried under three inches of soil for a period of three years.

After this time, the bodies are exhumed. If the body is incorrupt, it is laid out to see if further miracles are wrought through the monk's intercession. Later, the monk can be glorified a saint of his monastery or of Agion Oros as a whole.

If the body isn't incorrupt, and there are signs of this, then prayers are said for the repose of the monastic's soul (he is deemed to have been a sinner).

So incorrutibility is accepted much more "matter of factly" in the East than in the West.

When the Orthodox Princes Constantine and Alexander Ostrozhky were interred in the Caves Lavra, the Poles had their bodies exhumed and burned. They believed the Orthodox Church would not canonize them without their incorrupt relics and they certainly didn't want them canonized as new "Defenders of Orthodoxy" which is what they were.

I've also seen the incorrupt body of St Catherine Laboure in Paris - my wife was convinced it was a mere statue since the features could not have been so perfect . . .

It was one of those few times when I could tell her that she doesn't know everything . . .

Alex

asianpilgrim,

I've seen two incorrupt Eastern saints in person: Saint Josaphat and Saint John Maximovitch

During my trip to Rome this past August, I got to see the incorrupt body of Saint Josaphat, which is enshrined within the altar of Saint Basil's chapel in Saint Peter's basilica.

Saint Josaphat is one of my favorite saints so it was quite a thrill for me to pray before his relics.

His relics were translated many times to avoid desecration before reaching Rome.
His face is covered with a mask, modelled after how he looked like. His hands are covered as well.
Actually, one of his hands (which also is incorrupt) is enshrined at a Catholic church in Poland.

Saint Basil's chapel is located in an area closed off for hearing confessions, so unless you are going to confession you have to ask permission to enter. I didn't have any problems getting access. It helps to have a holy card of Saint Josaphat at hand.

Alex,

But the Roman Catholic Church requires numerous miracles for a saint to be canonized, so I wouldn't say the Roman practice is any more "logical" or "human" than the Byzantine practice. Both look for evidence (miracles, incorruptibility) that the person is question is already a Saint of God.

Alexis

I don't think it is so categorical. Joseph the New / Joseph the Hesychast (d. 1959) was not incorrupt when he was exhumed, and yet he is considered as the "father" of the current revival on Athos and is informally venerated as a saint (his skull is incensed during ceremonies at the Skete of one of his followers). St. Silouan of Athos was also reduced to bones when he was exhumed, as have been many other monastic saints. From time to time, the bones of the holiest hermits of Athos are said to be discovered here and there, the said hermits apparently having died in their splendid isolation (same thing is reported in Ethiopia). And, if I remember aright, you yourself spoke in your website of saints in Athos (and in the Kiev Caves) whose skulls are displayed -- they obviously aren't incorrupt either. Nevertheless, the skulls are said to be fragrant. (True or just a legend?)

A half-Greek, half-Filipino, Greek Orthodox convert to Catholicism whom I've befriended told me a different story: in Athos, sanctity is signified either by incorruption or by the state of the bones. If the bones are glossy white or if the skeleton is in extraordinarily good condition (I don't know what that exactly means), then the late monk is held to have been saintly.

At least, the bones of St. Nicholas of Myra in Bari continue to stream myrrh every year.

Dear Alexis,

Only in the sense that there is a lot of human science involved in the process of RC canonization with medical experts being consulted (at great cost).

The RC Church is having more and more difficulty finding such experts who are willing to "scientifically prove a miracle." Such cannot be proven that way and what would happen if in years from now someone demonstrates that what was thought to have been a miracle was not?

In that sense "human" - certainly miracles are necessary.

Alex

Dear Asianpilgrim,

Yes, incorruptibility isn't the only indicator of sanctity but the state of the bones as well. And the Skulls of the Saints are myrr-bearing and fragrant and they are reduced to the bone.

St Joseph the Hesychast was glorified on Athos and in Greece so he is a Saint already (other Churches can include him on their calendars, but this changes nothing in terms of the cultus that he is honoured with).

In the Kyiv Caves Lavra, the monastics who repose there are all incorruptibles but the 61 Skulls of Holy Saints sent there from Greece are not.

Miracles, of course, are the "sine qua non" of canonization (oops, sorry for the Latin! ).

Alex

ALL of the Kiev Caves monastics are incorrupt?

The Congregation for the Causes of Saints in Rome will issue on Monday, February the 18th, the document Sanctorum Mater providing for stricter standards for beatification and canonization in the Catholic Church "calling upon diocesan bishops to show 'greater sobriety and rigor' in opening causes."

Understandably, I prefer the rigorous 3-step process the Catholic Church follows before proclaiming her saints.

By the Catholic World News:

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=56583

Amado