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You can not be in communion with non - orthodox pretending to be orthodox. You may have all dogmas right, but you are not orthodox.

I entertain the illusion that "orthodoxy" means right belief. Does it really mean right connections?

Fr. Serge

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Ianceg, Fr. Serge

C. I. X.

Amen! Amen! Amen!

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Ceremonies as the blessing of Pascha (Easter foods) is a counterreformation development.

In the Latin Rite there is only a ritual for the blessing of the Easter Lamb (traditionally done before the slaughter, though this was modified to meet modern times). I wonder if this was expanded upon since I have seen the Ukrainians bring large baskets full of divers and sundry foods to be blessed.

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All calendars should honor the misunderstood martyr for bi-ritual mysticism Father Jan Hus.

Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong Jan Hus, but didn't he hold some rather heterodox ideas on the Holy Eucharist, Monasticism, Sacred Tradition, the Episcopacy, &c.?

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C. I. X.

��Jan Hus, but didn't he hold some rather heterodox ideas on the Holy Eucharist, Monasticism, Sacred Tradition, the Episcopacy, &�� quote BYZANTOPHILE

Reverend Father Jan Hus, I will admit I have never studies him in depth only in articles from others, mainly Dr. A Roman. But then again that is how I get most of my information. Protestant articles make him out a reformationist, RC a heretic and Orthodox one who was coming around to our way of thinking. Here are some leads:
Orthodoxy & Reformation
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/protestantism.htm
Polish Christian
http://www.unicorne.org/ORTHODOXY/janfeb/poland.htm
Luther declare sainthood
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/luther.htm
Lutheran (Tradition of Ss. Cyril & Methodius)
http://www.unicorne.org/ORTHODOXY/hiver2004/lutheran.htm
Akathist for Jan Hus
http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/hiver2004/johnhus.htm
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/akathist.htm
http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/2005/akathist.htm
Western Orthodoxy
http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm
West East Christianity
http://www.unicorne.org/ORTHODOXY/jan2003/medeival.htm
RC apology for Jan Hus burning
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/athens.htm
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/excommunication.htm

Articles by a balanced devil�s advocate analysis, I have not seen. Father Jan Hus was praised by the Ukrainian bard Taras Shevchenko in his epic poem HERETIC, �Holy Czech, the Great Martyr, the Glorious (Saint) Hus! I pray that all Slavs become as heretical as this Great Heretic��.

Father Jan Hus� bishop in 1412 complained of his insubordination not heterodoxy. He was for returning the chalice to the people, who in those days many thought that the priest took the flesh of Christ in the chalice, and turned it into bread so people could eat it. Monasticisms, he was against play-boy priest who abused their people. Father Jan Hus thought a clergyman needed to be under the discipline of an abbot or a wife. Sacred tradition, the Vulgate was based on the Alexandrian Greek text from which Erasmus got the Textus Receptus, which begot both the English King James and Ostrosky Slavonic Bibles. Father Jan Hus thought the people should be taught their religion with scripture in their vernacular leaving the theologians to argue in Latin or Greek, as exact languages. Episcopacy, just goes to show you he was a man ahead of his time. Like I admitted I have read articles but no balanced study. Do you know of one?

�In the Latin Rite there is only a ritual for the blessing of the Easter Lamb (traditionally done before the slaughter� I have seen the Ukrainians bring large baskets full of divers[e] and sundry foods to be blessed.� Quote BYZANTOPHIL

As far as Easter in Ukraine, as Europe�s largest all-inclusive country the only across the board custom is precooked, no work on the Sabbath of Sundays. Remember the blessing of foods is a counter-reformation custom not an Orthodox Catholic Tradition. Here in North America what is in the basket will generally indicate when the family immigrated. The first and second wave, like my grandparents brought everything and separately bundled their breads. If it wasn�t blessed they didn�t eat it during Bright Week or on St. Thomas Sunday. Remember most of these people lived walking distance from their church. The third wave went through the war so their breads were put into their baskets to take up room as food was a luxury. This fourth wave bring precut oeuvres they can snack with on the way home. Under the Soviet persecution a picnic basket was OK but a Pascha basket got you into trouble. Basically there is as many explanations of what goes into a Paschal basket and why as there are Pascha baskets. For the RC go to an ethnic Lithuanian, Polish, or Slovak parish for their custom. I heard but cannot confirm Byzantine influenced Scacillians also blessed food for Easter. Again it is all a personal thing, not dogma.


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Like I admitted I have read articles but no balanced study. Do you know of one?

Here's a faily well-balanced, if not informative, article:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07584b.htm

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Basically there is as many explanations of what goes into a Paschal basket and why as there are Pascha baskets. For the RC go to an ethnic Lithuanian, Polish, or Slovak parish for their custom.

Thanks for the info! That makes a lot of sense now. It must have been originally a Polish/Lithuanian custom. We do not have anything like that in the Spanish culture save the blessing of the Easter Lamb like I mentioned.

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Also exists in Slovenia as my mom's family had tradition of taking basket but with ham and easter eggs to be blessed on Sat. Have to ask her what they called it.

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Yes, there are as many stories as baskets. This might make a good thread on its own if there is interest. For instance my family packed nothing made with vinegar as Christ refused to drink it from the cross. So our horseradish was a root not a processed relish. My wife's family packed it so by the blessing it would be acceptable; clean. Or it could be a good place for question and answers this time of year, as long as we remember there might be a dozen answers for each question. It could share cooking tips, and it would be timely.



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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
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You can not be in communion with non - orthodox pretending to be orthodox. You may have all dogmas right, but you are not orthodox.

I entertain the illusion that "orthodoxy" means right belief. Does it really mean right connections?

Fr. Serge

Father, with all due respect, it seems you and others here are suggesting that connection (ie apostolic succession) is not important. Orthodox does mean right belief but you realize that that is just short hand for what we blelieve our Church to be.

We are the Orthodox Catholic Church and catholic implies both a wholeness within but also implies and apostolic structure.

I won't judge how God views those who belong to rogue schismatic Churches or Protestants who think Orthodox are ideas and vestments are neat, God sees the intention, I believe. But it does matter.

Now as far as this matters between Eastern Catholics it is a bit of a different story in that we both belong to a Church that can trace itself back to the apostles. But while the question in the West might be if we could really claim true aposolicity if we (the Orthodox) have broken our connection to the Foremost of the Apostles (St Peter), the question by many on the Orthdoox side might be if one can still claim true apostolicity if they are tied to a Church that holds (what we percieve to be) some beliefs that aren't just different, but wrong.

I'm not attempting here to answers those questions, but they do shed light on why one might convert to Orthodoxy (to leave what they percieve to be a connection to a group with some heretical beliefs) or convert to Eastern Catholicism from Orthodoxy in order to leave a Church that has denied the See of Peter for a Church that is cared for by the See of the Peter.

I'm not sure how we (on either side of the communion rail) can minimize the importance of what you referred to as connections.

And while I may disagree with you, I mean so respectfully and I apologize if I have seriously misunderstood your intent, Father.

Xpy

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Originally Posted by Jakub.
I agree one needs to choose one to dominate, which is difficult for me.

pax

I find it difficult too.

And so I will not chose one to dominate. I will let my conscience dominate. And that remains between me and God. But from what I can tell ... He has not chosen one over the other either. Christ walks among his churches .. and so do I when I follow.

Shhhh ... don't tell anyone else. They would not understand.

Peace be to all churches.
-ray

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We are not Roman Catholic�s in Byzantine clothing, we are Orthodox in communion with the Church of Rome as we were during our 1st millennium legacy. Our Apostolic Succession is the same as the Patriarch of Moscow. They usurped the missions of our Apostles Andrew, Cyril, Methodius, O�ilha and Volodymyr from us. We are inclusive because our Roman Catholic neighbors were receptive in joining against real heretical invaders as Islam, while our exclusive Orthodox neighbors allowed their heretical friends to enslave us and the rest of Christendom.

It was Russia who raped its mother Kyiv in 1169 and 1203 showing Venice the advantages of sacking Constantinople in 1204. This likewise left Kyiv for the deathblow of invading infidels and heretics. The Mongol Khan boasted �I will tie Kyiv to the back end of my horse� after which he gave Alexander Nevsky the title Grand Prince of Kyiv. Nevsky expelled the Knights Templar and rejected treaties with European Christendom preferring to fraternize with the Mongols who he paid for friendship. Which is God given, the despot or free will?

The more things change the more they remain the same. Ukraine today is a free nation but it�s canonical church is under the heel of Moscow, who advocates chauvinist enslavement. Its national sister churches demanding their thousand year old legacy in the form of an independent Kyivan Patriarchate are declared uncanonical or heretical. In the Orthodox Patriarchs� letters to the Vatican protesting the possibility of its recognition of a Kyivan Patriarch only the one from Poland deviated from unsubstantiated rhetoric. History does repeat. Do you believe God sees only in black on white? Would He see the bed partners of Stalin as orthodox?

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Originally Posted by Mykhayl
Our Apostolic Succession is the same as the Patriarch of Moscow. They usurped the missions of our Apostles Andrew, Cyril, Methodius, O�ilha and Volodymyr from us. We are inclusive because our Roman Catholic neighbors were receptive in joining against real heretical invaders as Islam, while our exclusive Orthodox neighbors allowed their heretical friends to enslave us and the rest of Christendom.

It was Russia who raped its mother Kyiv in 1169 and 1203 showing Venice the advantages of sacking Constantinople in 1204. This likewise left Kyiv for the deathblow of invading infidels and heretics. The Mongol Khan boasted �I will tie Kyiv to the back end of my horse� after which he gave Alexander Nevsky the title Grand Prince of Kyiv. Nevsky expelled the Knights Templar and rejected treaties with European Christendom preferring to fraternize with the Mongols who he paid for friendship. Which is God given, the despot or free will?

The more things change the more they remain the same. Ukraine today is a free nation but it�s canonical church is under the heel of Moscow, who advocates chauvinist enslavement. Its national sister churches demanding their thousand year old legacy in the form of an independent Kyivan Patriarchate are declared uncanonical or heretical. In the Orthodox Patriarchs� letters to the Vatican protesting the possibility of its recognition of a Kyivan Patriarch only the one from Poland deviated from unsubstantiated rhetoric. History does repeat. Do you believe God sees only in black on white? Would He see the bed partners of Stalin as orthodox?

When confronted with amazing diatribes such as this, I must remind myself that prayer is the best remedy for passions which are so easily stirred up within me.


The Prayer of St Ephraim the Syrian

O Lord and Master of my life, a spirit of idleness, despondency, ambition, and idle talking give me not.

But rather a spirit of chastity, humble-mindedness, patience, and love bestow upon me Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord King, grant me to see my own failings and not condemn my brother; for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages. Amen.


It is my prayer that both those of us who have just embarked upon the holy season of Great Lent and those who are nearing the end of their Lenten Journey can truly internalize this inspired prayer.

Fr David Straut



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Father Bless!

Thank you for the prayer.

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Father, Bless

I wholeheartedly agree that diatribes do little (at any time, but most particularly at a Holy Season such as is upon all of us, whichever calendar we follow) to foster Christian values or to encourage the prayerful hope that the day will come when we are one, as none among us can deny would be the desire of the Holy Spirit.

We can, forever, flail at one another for the injustices wreaked by our forefathers on each other - and each side will undoubtedly be called someday to account for its un-Christian actions toward the other under guise of faith - or we can, without disrespecting or forgetting those of our faiths who suffered wrongs, move on and pray for a future more in concert with the notion that our goal is to be pleasing to God than hardened in our pride and our bitterness.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Yes Father, thank you for the guidance.

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