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There have been many helpful insights in recent posts.
My point, however, is that, if there is a desire to encourage more widespread use of Slavonic in the liturgical celebrations of the BCC, it would seem a good idea:
(a) to identify a suitable "middle-ground" of pronunciation as a standard,
(b) to prepare (or identify the sources of) printed and recorded materials using that standard of pronunciation, and
(c) to encourage strongly (but in a less top-down manner than was adopted for the RDL) the use of that standard by clergy, and by laity of the Metropolia, especially choirs and cantors.
I fully appreciate the many reasons for the present confusing state of pronunciation in the US, but that does not mean that nothing should or can be done. If the Metropolitan Church really values this element of its liturgical heritage, it seems worth the effort to try to make the use of Slavonic as edifying as possible. An effort to standardize pronunciation could have a unifying effect on the Church by giving everyone, clergy and laypeople, Slavs and non-Slavs, an opportunity to learn to worship together more harmoniously.
This may be a bigger task than I imagine, of course. Perhaps a linguistic "beachhead" should first be established with cantors and choirs. (The Metropolitan Cantor Institute might have a role to play here.) Parish singers can then teach by example both the clergy and the congregation. When cantors and choirs of the Metropolia stop singing "Shvyatee Bozhay" and the like, and adopt a more consistent and authentically Slavic pronunciation style, I believe congregations will follow. And I suspect that parish clergy will appreciate this effort by their people.
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Tim, my friend, you're missing my point. One can no more standardize Slavonic than one can English. When the old ladies at the church a mile away from where I am typing this sing "Veee who meeeesticly rrrreprrresent da Xeruveem", do we correct them and encourage them to learn to speak better English? It is all a part of the subtlety of flavor that makes for a better stew. Alexandr (who would love to learn of a way to make Ukrainians stop automatically accenting the next to least syllable when reading Slavonic!!!) 
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One speaks as one is taught, coupled with bad grammar techniques and errors in pronunciation. Same holds true for English. Alexandr: Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!! How true. As an English teacher by first training, I can attest to that. And some of the worst mistakes are those which are learned so young that people cannot seem to overcome them even with years of training in what is considered standard language. BOB As in 'NU KEW LER'?!?  (aka: 'nuclear') God bless the President, but no amount of retraining could undo that! Atleast he could laugh at himself regarding it..it takes a big man to poke fun at himself. Alice
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Let me address these individually. (a) that there seems to be considerable divergence in the way it is pronounced, even by those schooled in it; As in English, or any other language, ones local intonation and accent is readily apparent. A Bostonite and a Mississippianite might sound like they speak 2 different languages. The same holds true for Slavonic. One can fairly quickly be reasonably sure where the priest or deacon comes from by his sccent. A Russian sounds different than a Serb, who sounds different from a Lemko. Bulgarians have a very gutteral G, Sibernaks have a long O, Carpatho Russians tend to take the long E and turn it to more like a soft U. Same language, different pronounciations. (b) that these divergencies are even greater among those who no longer speak their mother tongue (if they ever did) and whose pronunciation is being affected by the regionalisms and outright mispronunciations of those around them; Yep, I agree. One speaks as one is taught, coupled with bad grammar techniques and errors in pronunciation. Same holds true for English. (c) that the result of this clash of pronunciations among priests, deacons, cantors, choirs and congregations can be disedifying, to say the least; How many translations of Otche Nas are there in English? Ever hear a congregation and Choir sing 3 or 4 different ones? In Slavonic, there is just one. (d) that disparities of pronunciation seem to be particularly acute in some BCC parishes; and
(e) that my own efforts to find an accepted and authoritative "standard" of pronunciation for use in a BCC parish have thus far been fruitless. If you listen to recordings from Kiev, or south central present day Ukraine, you will hear what most consider the mid ground in Slavonic pronounciation, without the pronounced regionalization of the southern, western and northern Slavs. Alexandr Alexandr, I have heard different corrections from Ukrainians and Russians on how to pronounce Christos Voskrese-Voistinu Voskrese. My St. Vlad's Resurrection Service tape seems to sound like 'Christos VoskresE', 'VoIStinu VoskresE' (I can't tell if it is an 'eh' or an 'ee'), but my Ukrainian friend says that there should be no sound after the 's'. Please, somebody HELP! Thanks, Alice
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Dear Alice, If one were speaking Ukrainian, Chris-TOS VOS-kres would be correct. However, in Church Slavonic, it most definitely is Chris-TOS Vos-KRE-se. But in practice, either exclamation will get you a Voi-IST-inu Vos-KRE-se/VOS-kres and 3 kisses! Alexandr
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Let me address these individually. (a) that there seems to be considerable divergence in the way it is pronounced, even by those schooled in it; As in English, or any other language, ones local intonation and accent is readily apparent. A Bostonite and a Mississippianite might sound like they speak 2 different languages. The same holds true for Slavonic. One can fairly quickly be reasonably sure where the priest or deacon comes from by his sccent. A Russian sounds different than a Serb, who sounds different from a Lemko. Bulgarians have a very gutteral G, Sibernaks have a long O, Carpatho Russians tend to take the long E and turn it to more like a soft U. Same language, different pronounciations. (b) that these divergencies are even greater among those who no longer speak their mother tongue (if they ever did) and whose pronunciation is being affected by the regionalisms and outright mispronunciations of those around them; Yep, I agree. One speaks as one is taught, coupled with bad grammar techniques and errors in pronunciation. Same holds true for English. (c) that the result of this clash of pronunciations among priests, deacons, cantors, choirs and congregations can be disedifying, to say the least; How many translations of Otche Nas are there in English? Ever hear a congregation and Choir sing 3 or 4 different ones? In Slavonic, there is just one. (d) that disparities of pronunciation seem to be particularly acute in some BCC parishes; and
(e) that my own efforts to find an accepted and authoritative "standard" of pronunciation for use in a BCC parish have thus far been fruitless. If you listen to recordings from Kiev, or south central present day Ukraine, you will hear what most consider the mid ground in Slavonic pronounciation, without the pronounced regionalization of the southern, western and northern Slavs. Alexandr Alexandr, I have heard different corrections from Ukrainians and Russians on how to pronounce Christos Voskrese-Voistinu Voskrese. My St. Vlad's Resurrection Service tape seems to sound like 'Christos VoskresE', 'VoIStinu VoskresE' (I can't tell if it is an 'eh' or an 'ee'), but my Ukrainian friend says that there should be no sound after the 's'. Please, somebody HELP! Thanks, Alice Alice, Chritos Voskrese is Church Slavonic spelling and usage. Christos Voskres is the literary Ukrainian and Rusyn spelling and usage. Some churches only use the Slavonic spelling and usage, some use both. There is a difference. X.B.! B.B.! Ung
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They say great minds think alike!  Alexandr
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Dear Alice, If one were speaking Ukrainian, Chris-TOS VOS-kres would be correct. However, in Church Slavonic, it most definitely is Chris-TOS Vos-KRE-se. But in practice, either exclamation will get you a Voi-IST-inu Vos-KRE-se/VOS-kres and 3 kisses! Alexandr Christos Voskrese! Voistinu Voskrese! I LOVE you Russians! Did I just receive three virtual Resurrection kisses? Speaking of the Russian Church, did I ever tell you that in February we attended the OC feast day of St. Xenia of Petersburg at the Synod headquarters in NYC? --Didn't understand a word, but we definitely understood the piety and the Holy Spirit around us. We also were blessed with an annointing. It was beautiful. I am hoping and praying to get to St. Petersburg one of these days on pilgrimage to the tomb of the wonderful and miraculous beloved saint of mine, St. Xenia of Petersburg! BTW- Bishop Antonios of the GOA co-officiated at my parish's Resurrection Service this year, and he announced 'Christos Voskrese' to the congregation. There have been years where only I and perhaps another one, or at most-- two, knew to respond, (since we generally have a seminarian from St. Vladimir's present, Father makes sure to exclaim it in Slavonic) but this year there seemed to be a native contigent in the crowd that responded loudly and enthusiastically: 'Voistinu Voskrese'! In Christ, Alice
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Again, let me say that the insights offered by contributors to the thread have been most interesting. Their genuine love for the Slavonic heritage of the BCC is apparent.
My problem, however, is a practical one, perhaps more related to choirs and cantors than to individual clergy or laypeople. Tapes and CDs produced by choirs in Eastern Europe, while they may reflect accepted differences in pronunciation from country to country, and even from region to region within a country, nevertheless seem to be "internally" consistent. Each group sings with one voice.
For all the reasons cited in various posts, such a "single voice" seems difficult for some choirs and cantors in this country to achieve, in part because there is no single pattern of pronunciation within the average parish to which the director can point. Any professional choirmaster to whom I have spoken, however, firmly maintains that the beauty of choral music is lost when individuals or sections of a choir are pronouncing words differently. The same seems to be true when a group of cantors is leading a congregation in liturgical song.
Whether "Shvyatee Bozhay" or "Svyatiy Bozhe" is "correct", the effect of members of a choir or cantor group singing both, and perhaps others as well, at the same time, is musically chaotic, aesthetically disturbing, and spiritually counter-productive. The same is true of singing vowel sounds as both long and short. The list could go on.
I have a separate concern about cantors (individually and in groups): I have always thought that cantors perform a triple service: to God (first, and above all), to the celebrant and other altar clergy (with whom they cooperate in the great work of Liturgy), and to the congregation (the silent among whom they 'represent', the active among whom they lead, and all of whom they inspire and 'educate'). Particularly in this country, as the Slavic roots of the BCC become more attenuated, this task of educating becomes more important. Cantors are often the only 'model' on which non-Slavs and the descendants of Slavs who have no grasp of their vernacular mother tongue, still less of Slavonic, can try to base their use of the ancient liturgical language. Disarray in the cantors' pronunciation frustrates this effort.
P.S. UGCC folk with whom I worship pronounce the Easter Greeting in Slavonic as "KhrySTOS vosKRES" (XpuCTOC bocKPEC).
Last edited by Tim; 05/22/08 11:02 AM.
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My problem, however, is a practical one, perhaps more related to choirs and cantors than to individual clergy or laypeople. Tapes and CDs produced by choirs in Eastern Europe, while they may reflect accepted differences in pronunciation from country to country, and even from region to region within a country, nevertheless seem to be "internally" consistent. Please forgive me if my comment is stupid, but I think there has always been inconsistency of pronunciation of liturgical Church Slavonic throughout Orthodox countries in Eastern Europe. That is why scholars talk about the Serbian recention of Church Slavonic, the Ukrainian recension of Church Slavonic versus the Russian pronounciation of Church Slavonic. According to old timers there were also even regional distinctions within Ukraine itself. In our modrn age we have access to CDs or tapes of Church music from Bulgaria, Serbia, Ukraine, Russia and so forth so the differences are noticeable to all of us laypeople who buy CDs.
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Could we send a rep from this forum to Tver???? http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12705846&PageNum=0Tver starts festivities timed for Day of Slavic Written Language 22.05.2008, 12.40 TVER, May 22 (Itar-Tass) - The ancient Russian city of Tver starts on Thursday main festivities on the occasion of the Day of Slavic Written Language and Culture to be marked on May 24. �Delegations from eight former Soviet republics and other countries have confirmed their participation in festivities,� Itar-Tass learnt at the holiday organising committee. �Delegations will come from 16 Russian regions, and the Russian Orthodox Church will be represented by an impressive delegation,� the committee noted. This Day is connected with the names of Sts. Cyril and Methodius. On creating the Slavic written language and translating the Bible and other religious books from the Greek language, they became the first teachers and enlighteners. The Day of Slavic Written Language and Culture is the only state-church holiday in Russia. A message by Alexy II, the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, to participants in festivities stresses: �The hearts of our fellow countrymen are filled with gratitude to these devotees who worked for the sake of bringing Slavs to the Word of God and to the orthodox faith�. One of Russian cities hosts the Day of Slavic Written Language and Culture each year. In 2007, it was celebrated in Kolomna, Moscow Region. �Now, Tver has become the centre of All-Russian festivities. Following Russia�s Baptism, the Tver land built temples and monasteries, circulated books and spread school education,� the message runs. The opening in Tver of the international scientific conference �Slavic world: community and diversity� will be the central event of festivities this Thursday. The exhibition �Slavic etudes� will operate at the Imperial Stopover Palace. Staff members of the regional fine arts gallery will put on show nearly 200 monuments of art and culture. The regional library named after Maxim Gorky will hold (for the first time in the recent history of Russia) the launching of the collection �Slavic poetry of the 20th-21st centuries. From century to century. Slavic poetry�. The library will also present a collection of poets of the Bashkiria Republic, a non-Slavic people using the Cyrillic alphabet. All Slavic peoples had honoured Cyril and Methodius back in ancient times. In 1863, Russia adopted a decree on celebrating the commemoration day of these saints on May 11 (May 24 � Gregorian calendar). The tradition, forgotten after the 1917 October Revolution, revived in 1986. This holiday received a state statute five years later.
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I thought I had made clear that I know there are differences, and I respect them. I'm trying to find a way of achieving uniformity within a single parish, choir, or cantor group.
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Was there a particular time period when Slavonic was eliminated, and was it mandated ?
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So far as I am aware, nobody has formally eliminated or prohibited Church-Slavonic, unless perhaps in Hungary. Such linguistic shifts usually occur gradually, almost imperceptibly.
I've run into people who think that Church-Slavonic is "Old Russian". Earlier, I used to run into people who thought that Church-Slavonic was a form of Ukrainian. And so it goes.
Fr. Serge
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Fr Serge
So where Slavonic was eliminated, it was done on a parish by parish basis, beginning in the 1960's perhaps ?
I have noticed implications from some, that use of Slavonic is some proof of a church's orthodoxy and strong ties to tradition. Not that I'd disagree with that.
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