www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Santo cult,the split, icons, and "Orthodox Catholics"

Perhaps this post belongs elsewhere, and if so, I ask that this be moved to the appropiate board.

I'm reading OK Univ history professor's Of Wonders and Wise Men"Religion and Popular Cultures in Southeast MExico 1800-1876. He's quite anti-religious in that he assumes that religious worship is only for material gain, social prestige, etc.

He writes the following which seems a bit questionable to me, but I don't know enough history, but I'm sure someone here would know.
Rugeley claims that in Spanish the word "imagen: a religous icon literally an image of a sacred figure of a sacred figure such as a saint, the Virgin Mary, the cross, or Jesus. (A closely associated term,santo, could refer either to the spiritual being or to his iconic representation..."

In his section called The roots of Iconography he says "Icons had an ancient history in both Maya and Spanish cultures"

"As it spread from Rome outward the Catholic Church used both icons and holy relics to capture the imaginations of intended converts. At various points in church history, some theologians objected that these devices threatened to become more important than the divine person of Jesus and the fundamental teachings of Christianity. Throughout its first fifteen hundred centuries the church had wrestled with the issue of the power of icons, a contentious quarrel that ultimataely contributed to the Roman/Orthodox schism of 1054, with Orthodox Catholics adhering to the view of icons as transcendent bridges to the spiritual kingdom. During the middle ages the Calthic prelates officially downplayed santos...

"The convergence of the European and pre-Columbian iconographic traditions formed a cornerstone of Latin American folk Catholicism." "Icons such as santos were more than mere church decoration.Rathaer, they lived in a peculiar world between spiritual essence and worldly property, one that has no ready correlate in the minds of secular moderns."

Uh, is it me, or is this guy confused?

He cites as his sources
William Wroth's Images of Penance, Images of Mercy: Southwestern Santos in the Late Nineteenth Century.University of OK press,1991

and Patrick J. Geary's essay The Ninth Century Relic Trade: A Respone to Popular Piety in James Obelkevich's Religon and the People, 800-1700 University of NC press,1979.

What think ye?

Peace,
Indigo

During the middle ages, santos were downplayed? This guy must be completely ignorant of real Gothic architecture.

The writer also makes it seem like icons / statues and relics were basically an advertising ploy to lure converts.

I think he is right. Here in Brazil the "popular catholicism" seems to see in the imagens of the saints the saints themselves. People enter in a church to go to an specific imagem, hold in its feet, its hands, and talk with them. For these persons, the church has no liturgical sense. We also use the terms santo/santa to refer to the statues (some women who want to marry tie Santo Ant�nio upside down...)

Phillipe, thanks for the clarification on the word santos and their usage. This author is so off about the schism and the terminology for Eastern Christians that I wasn't sure I could take his word on santos either. So imagems and santos is the same thing; a statue?

Asianpilgrim, I was also left with the same impression. The example you noted about relics and converts is an example of his inability to consider anything religious to have any spiritual purpose. In his mind, the church was greedy for members and came up with the idea of icons, statues and relics to draw people in.

At this point in the book he's discussing all the manifestations of Mexican anti-clericalism. He acknowledges that some groups had excellent relationships with priests, but cites only the most abberant relationships. The book's purpose is not the wrongdoings of the church in 19th century mexico, but it is hard not to come away with that impression. I wish I didn't have to waste time on this.

Indigo, santo is "saint", but we also use to refer to the statues of saints. The process is of metonimy.

Imagem (pl. imagens) is "image", but in the colloquial use, within a religion context, by itself, refers to the saint's statues. The author also comments that in Spanish it refers to crosses too. That use doesn't occur in Portuguese (and I don't know Spanish).

And what about the form of cult people directs to those imagens, about which I agree with the autor? You've commented only about linguistics.

Thinking well, this part "...they lived in a peculiar world between spiritual essence and worldly property, one that has no ready correlate in the minds of secular moderns" could be applicated well to icons, don't u think? But in the sense the autor uses, which comes from a sociological analysis, it indicates - in our catholic vocabulary - idolatry. I think this form of cult happens indeed in the popular catholicism.