www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Ecclesia Dei mandates the Gregorian Latin Mass in all parishes.

Dear Alice,

I have known several devout traditional Catholics who planned for a Traditional Latin Mass at their own funerals, but were denied that request. Instead, the worst kind of liturgical abuse was committed at their funerals to the horror of their TLM friends. Yes, it is a travesty.

Here in Los Angeles, I sometimes have to console friends who are grieving because Catholic priests refuse to come to hospitals where non-ordained Eucharistic Ministers serve the sick. Forget about Holy Confession and the Anointing ... those are not done. I do not know if things have changed recently, but at Providence St. Joseph Hospital, one of the few priests who serve there is a biritual Jesuit.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

Can someone please inform the journalists that the expression "trainee priests" is virtually meaningless? [There are a very few exceptions - such as priests attending a graduate theological school, or the Vatican Institute for training papal diplomats.] A seminarian is precisely that: a seminarian, even as a medical student is not a "trainee physician".

Thanks!

Fr. Serge

A note of stridency seems to be creeping in to some of the posts on this topic. And several loosely connected, but quite distinct, issues seem to be getting lumped together. Glee at the prospect of a Roman dicastery's force-feeding the Tridentine Mass to parishes around the world seems inappropriate, to say the least. Insensitivity to the liturgical needs (tastes? preferences?) of some traditionalist Catholics also seems insensitive and un-Christian. See how these Catholic Christians love one another!?!??

On a more practical note, I would urge those seeking greater use of the Tridentine form to cast their minds back to pre-Vatican II days as they really were in most parishes and not as they were supposed to be. Until I went to the seminary, I had never heard of, still less seen, a Liber Usualis. Even though there were multiple Gregorian settings for the Mass in the Kyriale and in the back of my bulky St. Andrew Missal, I recell few ever being used in the parishes I attended, apart from the Missa de Angelis and the Missa Defunctorum. Gregorian settings for the Introit and other changeable parts were rarely heard except on a few major feast days. And in many parishes, whatever Gregorian settings were sung were rendered, more often than not, at least at weekday Masses, by a single organist while the good folk in the pews said their rosaries. Liturgical abuse is often in the eye (or the selective memory) of the beholder.

As a Latin Catholic, my main concern is to see the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite celebrated with as much dignity and reverence as possible. As it happens, my parish is fortunate to be served by a small community of Canons Regular of St. Augustine [augustiniancanons.org] who consider the solemn celebration of the liturgy to be a special part of their mission.

Tim, I actually have to get to a lovely abused Novus Ordo myself in a few minutes, but allow me a quick reply.

Regardless of the fact that Gregorian Chant, the Liber, etc. were grossly underused even in the pre-Vatican II days, are you denying that they were still, even then, MUCH more widely used than they are today? Of that, it seems, there can be little doubt. And isn't some better than virtually none?

And outside of that, the Church was full of vocations to the religious life, full of seminarians, the vast majority of Catholics attended weekly Mass, believed in the core doctrines of the Faith, and on and on. None of that can be said now. The statistics, proved over and over again, speak for themselves. Isn't the job of the Church to do her best to make saints? Judging from the numbers and from people's firsthand experiences, the pre-Vatican II Church, not without its many problems, of course, seemed to excel in that regard, at least relatively speaking.

Alexis

I am sincerely praying that the Novus Ordo contingency in the Roman Catholic Church will calm down and will not continue to jump to conclusions. The Pope has declared that the NO will continue to be used. Is it not fair that at least one TLM should be offered in each parish so that the needs of all Catholics can be met?



Dear Tim,

You were the first one to mention "glee" in this thread. I would describe this emotion more appropriately as a roller coaster ride with something new and potentially scary around each curve.

In the meantime, TLM Catholics still struggle. Some of my friends have become Byzantine Catholics like I did, only to endure the ridicule that they have abandoned their American roots and have somehow become unpatriotic. I am not kidding. It happened to me.

Liturgical abuse within the Los Angeles Archdiocese was observed by yours truly first hand to the point that I became nauseated whenever Sunday came around not knowing what to expect as the liturgists planned another novel experience or in Cardinal Mahony's words, "liturgical revolution."

We endured guitar masses, charismatic masses, healing masses, ethnic masses, diversity masses, clown masses, and teddy bear masses. I tried to accommodate and adapt by playing the guitar because of Cardinal Mahony's insistence that if you were not part of the solution, then you were part of the problem. However, the songs requested did not relate to the reality, and I could not honestly continue in the music ministry. Even the children were not spared since they had special paraliturgical services in Sunday School where they were given Oreo Cookies and Grape Juice so that when it came time for their First Holy Communion, they did not like the switch and complained bitterly. Oh, for those who want verification, that happened in the 1990s at St. Dominic's Church and so we switched to the Melkite Church where we were offered the Focolare Movement by the hierarch. Grrrr.

I can understand the need for novel experiences within Protestantism because they lack the Holy Mysteries, but for those of us who are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, we have found the True Faith and we worship the undivided Trinity who has saved us. We are in the Kingdom already but most of us do not realize that.

What do they teach today's youngsters? (paraphrasing C.S. Lewis).

In Christ,
Elizabeth

Liturgical abuse within the Los Angeles Archdiocese was observed by yours truly first hand to the point that I became nauseated whenever Sunday came around

I do with much pain second the experience...

james

Traditional Mass for 'all the parishes' [blogs.telegraph.co.uk]

Elena Curti (The Tablet): Your Eminence, I�d like to ask what you make of the response of the Bishops of England and Wales to the Pope's Motu Proprio.

Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos: I think it's a good one. There are some probems because it�s a new way of celebrating liturgy and they need time to prepare priests and catechists on the content of the Extraordinary Form.

Reuters: In some parts of the world there seems to be resistance on the part of local bishops to allow the faithful their full freedom to celebrate the Extraordinary Form. What do you recommend that the faithful do?

CC: To be informed. Many of the difficulties come out because they don�t know the reality of the Gregorian Rite � this is the just [correct] name for the Extraordinary Form, because this Mass was never prevented, never. Today for many bishops it is difficult because they don�t have priests who don�t know Latin. Many seminaries give very few hours to Latin � not enough to give the necessary preparation to celebrate in a good way the Extraordinary Form. Others think that the Holy Father is going against the Second Vatican Council. That is absolute ignorance. The Fathers of the Council, never celebrated a Mass other than the Gregorian one. It [the Novus Ordo] came after the Council � The Holy Father, who is a theologian and who was in the preparation for the Council, is acting exactly in the way of the Council, offering with freedom the different kinds of celebration. This celebration, the Gregorian one, was the celebration of the Church during more than a thousand years � Others say one cannot celebrate with the back to the people. This is ridiculous. The Son of God has sacrificed himself to the Father, with his face to the Father. It is not against the people. It is for the people �

Damian Thompson (Telegraph): Your Eminence, would the Holy Father like to see ordinary parishes in England with no knowledge of the Gregorian Rite introduced to it?

CC: Yes, of course. We cannot celebrate this without knowledge of the language, of the signs, of the ways of the Rite, and some institutions of the Church are helping in that way.

DT: So would the Pope like to see many ordinary parishes making provision for the Gregorian Rite?

CC: All the parishes. Not many � all the parishes, because this is a gift of God. He offers these riches, and it is very important for new generations to know the past of the Church. This kind of worship is so noble, so beautiful � the deepest theologians� way to express our faith. The worship, the music, the architecture, the painting, makes a whole that is a treasure. The Holy Father is willing to offer to all the people this possibility, not only for the few groups who demand it but so that everybody knows this way of celebrating the Eucharist in the Catholic Church.

Anna Arco (The Catholic Herald): On that note, would you like to see all the seminaries in England and Wales teach the seminarians how to celebrate in the Extraordinary Form?

CC: I would like it, and it will be necessary. We are writing to the seminaries, we are in accord that we have to make deep preparation not only for the Rite, but for [teaching] the theology, the philosophy, the Latin language �

DT: What would be the practical steps for ordinary parishes [to prepare for the Gregorian Rite]?

CC: If the parish priest selects an hour, on Sundays, to celebrate the Mass, and prepare with catechesis the community to understand it, to appreciate the power of the silence, the power of the sacred way in front of God, the deep theology, to discover how and why the priests represents the person of Christ and to pray with the priest.

EC: Your Eminence, I think many Catholics are rather confused by this new emphasis on the Tridentine Rite, mainly because we were taught that the new Rite represented real progress, and many of us who have grown up with it see it as real progress, that there are Eucharistic ministers, women on the sanctuary, that we are all priests, prophets and kings. This new emphasis to many of us seems to deny that.

CC: What is progress? "Progredire", means [offering] the best to God� I am surprised, because many young people are enthusiastic with the celebration of the Gregorian Rite �

EC: In the Motu Proprio, the Pope's emphasis is on one Rite and two forms, and he describes the Tridentine Rite as "extraordinary". Extraordinary therefore means exceptional, not something that we celebrate every Sunday.

CC: Not "exceptional". Extraordinary means "not ordinary", not "exceptional."

EC: Should it therefore supersede the new Rite? Should we go back?

CC: It is not going back: it is taking a treasure which is present, but was not provided. � But it takes time. The application of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council took years. It takes time to understand the deep profundity of the old Rite. The Holy Father is not returning to the past; he is taking a treasure from the past to offer it alongside the rich celebration of the new Rite. The second Eucharistic prayer of the new Rite is actually the oldest one [in the Church�s entire liturgy]. It�s not a matter of confrontation but of fraternal dialogue.

DT: Will there be a clarification of the Motu Proprio?

CC: Not exactly a clarification of the Motu Proprio, but of matters treated in the Motu Proprio, such as the calendario, ordinations to the sub-diaconate, the way of using vestments, the Eucharistic fast.

DT: What about the "stable group"?

CC: It's a matter of common sense � In every bishop's household there are maybe three or four persons. This is a stable group � It is not possible to give two persons a Mass, but two here, two there, two elsewhere � they can have it. They are a stable group.

DT: From different parishes?

CC: No problem! This is our world. Managers of enterprises don�t live in one place, but they are a stable group.

May 2, 2008: FSSP to distribute free copies of new Latin Mass DVD [wdtprs.com]

"Dario Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission, provides an introduction for the DVD. The Ecclesia Dei Commission is tasked with the implementation of Pope Benedict�s Motu Proprio on the 1962 Latin Mass...

The cardinal said that parishes and priests should make available the Extraordinary Form so that �everyone may have access to this treasure of the ancient liturgy of the Church.� He also stressed that, �even if it is not specifically asked for, or requested� it should be provided. Interestingly, he added that the Pope wants this Mass to become normal in parishes, so that �young communities can also become familiar with this rite.�"

The fuller texts provided by Vincenzo help, I think, to put Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos remarks in a context. On the WDTPRS website, Thompson posted in the combox the following:


Comment of Damian Thompson at WDTPRS [wdtprs.com]

Given the context provided by Vincenzo's posts, it strikes me that the Cardinal was engaging in a bit of (legitimate, for his part) interpretation of the mind of the Pope regarding Summorum Pontificum. Mr. Thompson has taken this view of the Cardinal's, and elevated it a bit beyond what it seems to me, anyway, the Cardinal intended.

People seem to have latched onto that view, and run with it. I respect their hopes and desires, and indeed share them to some degree, but I do not read Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos remarks as implying anything more than a desideratum and ideal for the "reform of the reform" of the Roman Rite.

Best,
Michael

Interesting, Vincenzo!

Thanks for providing this transcript.

It does seem that Damian Thompson is NOT exaggerating as some would seem to hope, but that he is right on in his Telegraph article.

Elena Curti, on the other hand, needs our prayers, that she will accept the Gregorian Liturgy and realize the beauty within that ancient liturgy which has served the church for over a thousand years.

Oh, yes, there have been some changes to the Gregorian Liturgy over the centuries, such as the removal of the Trisagion Hymn sometime in the 8th or 9th Century. It would be wonderful if that hymn were once again sung in its rightful place.

PRECISELY! Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos was expressing the desire and explaining the mind of the Holy Father. But there was no talk of enforcing the use of the TLM in all churches -- something that not a few of my fellow Traddies enjoy to think about.

It simply will never be accepted period!
Stephanos I

It's good that in Britain there are some conservative bishops who are open to the Pope's intention to restore the Gregorian Liturgy.

However, I am not so optimistic about what would happen in the rest of the world. The Latin American RC Bishops, for example, would never accept this.

Fr. Stephanos,

I'm not sure what you don't think will be accepted (perhaps you could elaborate?) but "never" is a very long time.

Best,
Michael