www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Lemk people fight for survival

A good part of my church is Lemko and they are staunch Ukrainian patriots. They wear tryzub pins on thier jackets and carry Ukrainian flags at parades. Sometimes I don't understand their dialect yet they just consider themselves Lemko Ukrainians who are from Poland or the Carpathians.

They to me are no different than Hutzuls or Bukhovynians or Ukrainians from the Kuban.
Same backround, same ancerstors, pretty much same religon, same root language, different dialects, yet Ukrainian.

This is my impression of this (these) group(s).

BTW, Metropolitan Stefan Sulyk, retired Met. of Philidalphia was born in Lemkivshchyna and is a Lemko, yet Ukrainian and a Ukrainian hierarch..........

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: ukrainiancatholic ]

Too bad Alex has to leave

But at least he left fighting for Ukrainians........

I think I'm starting to admire Alex more. He's showing his true colors.
Lauro

Our parish is about 50% Lemko. Not one identifies themselves as anything but Ukrainian with a Lemko sub-identity. Having served in several Ukrainian Catholic parishes populated largely by people of Lemko descent I have only heard one family who identified themselves as Lemko in origin ever refer to themselves as "Rusyn" and they attended an OCA parish. And after Operation Wisla the Poles don't have much to say becuase they evacuated most of the Lemkos.

Alex as usual is right on the money. I can't buy your arguments, Bob. The Slovaks and Magyars sure as heck have done nothing to preserve Lemko culture and language. Lemko sub-identity is a significant part of the personality of many Ukrainians. I don't see anywhere close to this same level of any kind of identity with the non-Ukrainian Ruthenians except American, Slovak or Hungarian.

I will agree with the eminent Dr. Paul Magocsi that the forced tribalization by the Poles (and those further south) in the 1930s actually separated many of the Lemkos forcebly from their Ukrainian identity. He also documents how the Poles referred to the Ukrainian language officially as "Rusyn" during this time and refused to use the term "Ukrainian" officially. Also Ukrainians were not free with educational options for their children within Polish borders, and the children were taught within Poland that they were something else besides Ukrainian.

Poland even interferred politically by negotiating with Rome in limiting the authority of L'viv in the ecclesial jurisdiction in Lemko land. Thus the higher level of Latinization in these areas because of Polish influence compared to further east where Metropolitan Sheptytsky was able to excersize more ecclesial influence.

The Ukrainian identity has always included the sub-identity of Hutsuls, Boykos, Lemkos, etc. without the loss of any particular customs of these people. For example, just look at the music and videos in the Yevshan Ukrainian catalog. Much of the music and videos are celebrating both the Ukrainian and Hutsul, Boyko, whatever identity of these peoples. If you are a-courtin', and you receive a pumpkin, what does that mean? Several Lemko and Hutsul people in my Ukrainian Catholic parish, some second generation, can still tell me what that means.

I can't say the same for the Magyars, Poles and Slovaks who have generally assimilated the Ruthenians without regard to preservation of those particular customs. I have a friend who is Rusin, has a Rusin name, even remembers some bits of Old Slavonic hymns, but identifies himself as nothing but Hungarian. No sub-identity at all. His people came from Marmaros, definitely hard-core Ruthenian country, but he has absolutely no remaining Ruthenian identity.

There is not a coherent or discernable
"Ruthenian" identity that I can see outside of Ukraine. Only magyarized, russophile, Slovacized, and Polanized Carpatho-Ukrainians. And I am saying this as someone whose descandents came from Uzhorod. Dr. Magocsi in his "Let's Speak Rusyn" clearly places the Rusyn dialects in the Ukrainian linguistic family.

This ethnic disunity fractured our church in the US and the separation of jurisdictions after the death of Bishop Ortynsky did nothing positive. I guess at least we remain in ecclesial communion with each other, it could be worse.

Dear All,

Perhaps I missed something, but I don't think that the administrator banned any topic in this thread.

Alex, I hope that you will consider the good that you do here and reconsider what appears to be a rather hasty decision. Though much heat has been generated in the thread, Fr. Joe has refocused the discussion. You have much to add to the discussion, it seems to me, as the heat turns to light.

Surely the Faith that all of you who come from the Byzantine family of Churches share is greater that those things which make you different. Isn't that what this place is about; or did I miss more than I thought?

Steve

"Dorohij Diak",
I suggest you visit Uzhorod. I have visited Uzhorod and Transcarpathian-Rus' three times in eight years with my relatives in Certez (that's my Dido Koshuta's village) and thoroughout Transcarpathia and I beg to differ. Alex and anyone else from Central Galician and Eastern Galician villages can have their perogative and call themselves Ukrainian, but anyone who actually visits the "Northern Lemko Land" (i.e. Rusyns in Southeastern Poland) and "Southern Lemko Land" (i.e. Rusyns of Eastern Slovakia) and Transcarpathian-Rus' would hear the local "Rusyns" speaking their "Rusyn" dialect and referring to themselves as Rusyns. If you ask anyone in Transcarpathia where is "Ukrajina", they will point towards the northeast and answer "a thousand miles away in Kyiv". I don't want to get into polemic ethnic arguments on this religious site, but I will defend my honorable Rusyn lineage when push comes to shove. "Prebachte, Oleksander!"

Ung-Certez

Dear friends,

Obviously this is a very sensitive topic of discussion. However, this is nonetheless a discussion that should be allowed to take place, albeit with courtesy and mutual respect. As a student of history, I realize that this subject is a veritable mine field, and thus should be approached with some caution.

As the Administrator has said many times before, this is a "Byzantine" board, dealing with Byzantine Christianity of all jurisdictions. This is not an exclusively Rusyn board, although many of the participants are from Rusyn jurisdictions. Other Eastern Christians and Western Christians are also very welcome to participate here. In any case, no one should feel excluded.

I hope that tempers will cool down, and that participants will refrain from making insensitive personal comments. Remember, we are all followers of Christ, and therefore are members of the same family. Let us demonstrate love for one another in all of our dealings.

Thanks,
Anthony
Moderator

Fr. Joe makes some very interesting points, as do the other participants.

I suspect that when and where one emigrated from / immigrated to plays a big role in what one calls oneself.

My maternal grandparents emigrated from villages near Uzhorod about 1910. They would never have used the term �Ukrainian� to describe themselves since they considered the Ukrainians to live much further east than Uzhorod. They simply called themselves �ponashemu� (�our kind�) from �pod karpaska rus� (Carpathian Mountains of Rus) and subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Yet I have cousins of my maternal grandparents who emigrated from the same village near Uzhorod in the 1950�s and settled in Edmonton, Alberta who clearly identify themselves as Ukrainians (and always have).

Maybe it�s the equivalent of �Who is a Yankee?� If you ask a European or Asian who a Yankee is they will say �An American�. If you ask someone in the American south he will say �A New Englander�. If you ask a New Englander he will most likely say someone from Vermont. And so it goes.

Here in Virginia near Washington, DC, it is sometimes easy to forget one lives in the South (all those Pennsylvanians have moved here!). Yet occasionally the South breaks through and shines brightly. A few years ago a friend and I went to Antiedam National Battlefield in nearby Sharpsburg Maryland for a picnic and fireworks on the Fourth of July. The symphony giving the fireworks concert started with the national anthem and then played the usual expected fare (including that famous American composition �The 1812 Overture� by Tchaikovsky ). At the end of the evening the final hymn was the Southern national anthem, Dixie. The entire battlefield full of people (maybe 1,500) stood up and sang it.

Maybe the Slavic ethnic stuff is something similar? I sometimes wonder that if any of us from Central and Eastern Europe ancestry have our ears pierced, would butter and onions would flow out?

Dear Administrator,

Please accept my apologies for exploding the way I did on Friday.

Sometimes I feel as if I'm picked on because there are those who consider me a push-over .

The up side of that is that they don't feel I'm a threat to them.

But little do they know . . .

In any event, and for the record, I support anyone in whatever cultural, religious or political identity they affirm for themselves.

I agree with your historical analysis.

I hold no grudge and thank the many, many people who agreed with me and came to the defense of this lost cause!

Alex

Alex,

I don�t see anything in your posts worth apologizing for.

Since you have apologized, however, for your penance I will appoint you as senior judge of a taste-test contest for the new Mrs. T�s Broccoli & Cheddar and Jalapeno & Cheddar Pierogies. You will assemble a jury of 12 like-minded Slavs (a penitential task in itself) and conduct a taste test of all Mrs. T�s Pierogies to determine if the new flavors will be accepted throughout Slavdom. The results must be unanimous or else you must continue eating them until the results are unanimous. Details can be found at http://www.pierogies.com/ProductsAll.html I suggest that you schedule the taste test for immediately after the Old Calendar Dormition Fast.

Admin

PS: I have eaten real home made pierogies served with freshly made salsa at our parish in Las Vegas. Delicious!

Now you've really opened Pandora's box.

I want to ask everyone about "dessert" pirohi.
I've had lekvar pirohi's since childhood, but what about other fruit. In Slovakia I recently had pirohi with a slice of peach inside, served with a dusting of confectioner's sugar and crushed walnuts. Maybe a little chocolate sauce and whipped cream in the presentation too. (Or was that only with palacinky?) And I've heard tale of sour cherry, and other such fillings.

Are these pirohi a recent innovation? (Nothing like it in Cambria County PA to my knowledge.) If they are an innovation, did the idea come from the west, east, north, or south. If it came from RC lands, I hope we can nevertheless agree to keep this practice. Perhaps if no pesticides were used in the production of the fruit, we can make a case for "organic" development.

djs

I know this is way off topic, but....when the subject of pierogi come up I can't be silent! My friend Babcia keeps me in the most delicious pierogi of all sorts...I have discovered that standard cheese and potatoe pierogi are heavenly when covered with puerco con tomate verde (pork braised with a tomatillo and green chile sauce). The sour cream goes well with it too! I do other things with pierogi, so if anyone wants some ideas let me know by private message or email dondav@att.net Oh! And Babcia makes them with fruit too, mostly apples. I love them all! Don

[ 08-13-2002: Message edited by: Don in Kansas ]

More off topicness I fear but

You folk are really making me begin to understand what I am missing - these gorgeous things I have never heard of here, and I'm getting hungry at 9 am reading about them.

Heeeelp - it's bad for my waistline

Hi DJS

You wrote:"...I've had lekvar pirohi's since childhood, but what about other fruit..."

At the Polish market here, I buy them filled with whole strawberries. I boil them and then instead of sauteing them with onions, I sautee them in butter or margerine and then sprinkle granulated sugar over them and eat.

In Slovakia, my cousins made them with cherries, strawberries and also blackberries. My cousins make them with whatever fruit happens to be in season.

My favs though are the ones made with lekvar!

mark