www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greece legalises cremation

Dear Alice,

I didn't mean to imply that you made anything up. The person who originally stated these reasons is the one I question.

I agree that burial is the better practice. But the way we Westerners bury is not as the Jews do, we commonly embalm and preserve the body (indirectly poisoning the earth), while Jews (and Muslims) do not.

Dear Michael Thoma,

The Greek Orthodox in Greece do not either. Good American girl that I am, I used to think that the Greek approach was disgusting, maccabre, etc., but now I see the wisdom in it. The body is buried without embalming in much more simple coffin boxes (a very expensive one might be lacquered wood, but would still be smallish, in the old fashioned pine box style, and not padded with all the stupidities of gaudy Americana. The body is buried in the coffin. After three years, the body is exhumed, at which point the body is presumably disintegrated. A memorial is prayed by the priest. At that point the bones are placed in a reliquary in the cemetery and the space is freed up. There are a few new cemeteries lately on the islands and outskirts of cities that allow permanancy.

Alice

An Irish wake sounds just like a Filipino wake, then!

Wakes here in the Philippines can last anywhere from 3 to 7 days. My father's wake (in 1995) lasted four nights and four days. And the cookies and pasta and the soft drinks and (normally) the beer have to keep flowing for the endless stream of visitors. Oftentimes, the last night before cremation or burial is an all-night party, as visitors crowd one last time to celebrate the memory of the dead. (Many visitors, though, give money to the bereaved family)

Church funerals, though, are not as common as in the past: normally, priests just celebrate Mass at the funeral home. And priests almost never accompany the funeral procession to the cemeteries or the crematorium.

The problem with long wakes is that these often prolong the sorrow and the denial stages of the grieving. When my Muslim aunt died in 2006, she was buried in a Muslim cemetery within 8 hours of her death, in the dead of night (an experience I won't forget). And I found that the experience actually helped my grandparents and her brothers and sisters (and myself) to get over the loss much more quickly.

I'm surprised at the remarks of some here that the Catholic Church discourages cremation. Here in the Philippines, the Church encourages cremation, and the Church here has even become one of the biggest beneficiaries of the trend towards cremation. In recent years, many massive columbaria (cemeteries for "cremains") have been constructed in and around Metro Manila, often in the guise of Catholic shrines. There are two major columbaria-cum-Catholic-shrines within ten minutes of my residence, and other parishes have niches specifically for cremains. And one of the most prominent Filipino theologians, Msgr. Gerardo "Gerry" Tapiador, has published a pamphlet praising cremation and even saying that it is preferable to burial. (He also happens to be building a columbarium in the parish of which he is the rector)

My own father was an agnostic and he specifically requested cremation, and my mother honored his request. As was quite common in the Philippines, we kept the cremation urn with his ashes for several years in our house. I guess some of you will find that macabre and disgusting, and when I look back, I actually share the same sentiment. I still don't know how I managed to live for several years with what were basically my dad's pulverized bones just sitting a few meters from my bed and just across my desk. But it was the culture, although the popularity of columbaria is making that practice obsolete.

We originally wanted to honor his final request that his ashes be scattered to the four winds, but then the Catholic Church in the Philippines issued a letter denouncing the practice of scattering ashes and ordering that ashes be honorably buried in columbaria or cemeteries. We finally buried him -- along with the "cremains" of two of his brothers -- in a cemetery niche in 2006.

As for the process of cremation, I don't know if this is done in the US, but both when my dad and uncle were cremated, the "oven" was opened in front of the family, so that we could see the burning, cinder-like bones being collected. After that, the bones were put in a pan and "displayed" one last time before being ground to dust. I don't know how the practice started, and it may seem horrid, but it sort of gave a sense of closure. Another life had ended, dust had come back to dust, and it was time to realize that our loved one had indeed died and would not be coming back.

I do have a distant relative, though, who had the experience of being present when the crematoria personnel opened the "oven" DURING the cremation of her father. To her horror, she saw her father's corpse violently contract from the heat and "stand up" from the waist while engulfed in flames. I've been told that, during cremation, the corpse can "dance around" violently as the heat forcibly contracts the skin, even breaking the bones of the corpse. Not a pretty thing to think about.

Dear Asian Pilgrim,

Thank you for your post. I think that the last paragraph says it all, and confirms what horror my priest said when he witnessed a cremation...it also explains my church's position that it is 'blasphemous' to the body and temple of the Holy Spirit.

I think that your post has probably put an end to this thread and has hopefully given readers something to think about.

Alice, Moderator

With all due respect Alice, two things come to mind:

1) When I was in high school (a million years ago) I did a "senior project" (mini-internship at the end of senior year) with an attorney. The attorney was involved in a murder case where the corpse had been buried in a shallow grave. Seeing the photos of the decomposed corpse - found weeks after the burial - did not leave me with any special idea that burial - out of sight out of mind - was all that much more respectful to the body. Decomposure - done rapidly or slowly - ain't ever pretty.

2) I have had friends and relatives who have chosen this option. They are not pagans, they had no ideas of rejecting Christianity or the resurrection. My grandmother - whose husband died 45 years ago - considered it as an option because when her husband's sister died destitute several years later, she donated the plot next to his (which she had bought for herself) to her sister-in-law's family. For a time, she had considered the idea of being cremated so that her considerably reduced remains could be buried next to his. She has since chosen otherwise, but her inclinations were understandable.

We might have to simply leave it as a difference that reflects personal inclinations. You find cremation horrible, I can't say I would be enthused about having my loved ones' remains disintered after 36 months to have their bones moved...

So it goes.

We can all agree, I certainly hope, to pray, pray, pray for the dead, whatever happens to their dust. Leave me in a ditch, for all I care, I will need then (as I already need now) all the prayers that can be mustered. And then some.

-Simple

Alice,

The Greek tradition of exhuming the buried remains after three years and then putting them elsewhere to free up space is a beautiful tradition, in my opinion. It'd be cool if we could start the same thing here in the U.S.

Alexis

A Boston Irish friend of mine recounted an incident where, he, as a young man, was traveling with another Irish friend, who pulled up to a house explaining that he had to drop in on a wake. My friend knew neither the deceased or his family.

Nonetheless, it was a day an a half later when they left . . .




One of my favorites!


My understanding, right or wrong, is that the sheer number of completely destroyed Christian bodies in the world wars led to the Church's reconsideration of the issue.

hawk

Etnick:

One of the biggest misconceptions about the residue of cremation is that it is "ashes." The residue that comes back to us is bone fragments and bone dust. It is heavy--sometimes as much as thirty pounds. Please don't think of it as ashes. I always cringe when someone comes to take their cremated relative and almost drop the urn on the floor because of the weight, even when I've told them to be careful. It's not ash; it's bone fragments and bone dust.

BOB

ALICE:

In my experience and watching the trends among people, I'd say that the increase is coming among people who are not churched. Remember that in the US over 50% of people admit to no religious affiliation--that doesn't mean they don't believe in God; it means they have some homemade version of religion that contains some trace Christianity and lots of their own stuff mixed with the popular culture. There are also those who come to me bitter over the fact that no relatives come to visit or are far away and seldom visit. They take the attitude that since no one takes any interest now they don't want them to come around later.

Then there are those who believe that their dead are worthless and not don't want to spend any time or money on what used to be considered a "decent" burial--whatever that might be. I'd prefer a "dignified" burial at whatever economic level a family could afford over a "disposal."

BOB

SS:

I've got to agree with you here. Though cremation is not for me or my family as long as I'm alive, I do believe that our God, Who created all of us out of nothing, can surely pull all the scattered remnants back together for the General Resurrection on the Last Day.

BOB

ALICE:

The demand for expensive merchandise follows economic times. In the past fifteen years of my practice, the trend is toward more simplicity, though perhaps it's because I lvie in a depressed rural area. OTOH, my consulting partner tells me that he sees the same thing in a major metropolitan area. Industry execs tell us that the trend in what they sell is toward simpler merchandise, too. If they're not selling it nationally, it must be something more than our depressed area.

Much of these really extravagant caskets have embarrassed me at times. But I do like to have my catalogue around when someone comes in and with great bravado asks for the "best you've got." Then I show him the 24 carat gold plated model that is almost a year's salary wholesale. That usually brings the person back to reality.

One of the latest trends is the "green" funeral. It's still developing, but promises to change much of contemporary thinking. I've thought about acquiring a few hundred acres and starting a "green" cemetery, but most people wouldn't like it. And I think that includes many Orthodox Christians. In such a situation, there are no markers so in a few years no one would know where a loved one was actually buried. It might make it hard to conduct the memorial services at the grave.

BOB

BOB

DAVE:

Not true--see the portion I "bolded." We've been required sinc eht initiation of the Federal Trade Commission's Fuenral Rule of 1984 to "disclose" the regulations in our state in clear and unambiguous language at each arrangements conference. In PA, for example, we have three options for how to handle a human remains kept over 24 hours--see PA Rules and Regulations 13.201 6 (i) which states that we must either embalm, place in a sealed container (and not viewing), or keep under refrigeration and bury within five hours of removal from refrigeration (and under most circumstances no viewing by the public).

Where things get a bit clouded is what constitutes a "viewing." Two people taking a look to identify a remains as the correct person and spending ten minutes is not a viewing; a room full of relatives around for half an hour seems to be. That's the gray area we all wonder about. Actually the embalming of human remains is required in the case of certain contagious diseases and they are also spelled out in law. So there's much more here than economic promotion.

BOB

MT:

Actually, not true either. Permission is regularly given for the cremation to take place BEFORE any liturgical rites. The urn is placed on a table in the middle of the church just as a casket would be.

I've served many families who have done this for economic reasons and the custom is not well over 25 years old in my own experience.

BOB

My 1998 version of the funeral rites for the Latin Church contains the Appendix of rites to be used in the case of cremation, so this is not really recent. The formal codification of these practices took some time, but the first such funeral I served on took place in the early 1980s.

BOB

Have to challenge this one. Actually when the series of chemical equations that describe the natural decomposition of the dead human is written and explained, the embalming process that funeral directors use actually takes one very nasty step out that involves the release of various gases.

However, the embalming process we use is actually meant to make the funeral time a bit more pleasant, curbing briefly what nature starts to do immediately and which continues again once the body is consigned to the earth.

I've been involved in disinterments and things are anything but pleasant after time has passed.

BOB