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Originally Posted by Alice
...Just saw the video...

I don't really know if this particularly bothers me as much as the fact of his secrecy and his flip flopping lies about everything...I was most astounded and what I fear most is his 'spiritual mentor' and the rhetoric he spewed.

Honestly, I would have preferred if Hillary Clinton would have won the nomination. Atleast we knew what she stood for, what she was passionate about, and she was honest about it. She also seemed to have strong leadership qualities. This man's background and influences are shady, and thus, I cannot trust his presidential intentions.

Alice

Agreed, Alice. I would much rather a Hillary presidency than an Obama one. Better the devil you know, as they say...

...and there is much we do not know (and he does not want disclosed) about this one.

Plus, she is far more of a pragmatist. Bill and Hill tended to govern more as left-leaning centrists.

I think we are in for some difficult times under this socialist, if he wins.

Fr. Deacon Daniel

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My vote could have been washed out with 4,000 voting from the grave in Houston alone. I hope the registers are cleared by election time.

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Its pretty simple. You can't be a Christian in good standing and vote for Barack Obama. His view toward Human life is not capable with Christianity.


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Well, Alexis, here's 1 minute and 51 seconds that may be worth your attention as a devout Catholic.

Now, that, I can agree to! ...The distinguishing factor being that this YouTube video is half way rational. Thank you.

Alexis

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Originally Posted by Ray S.
Its pretty simple. You can't be a Christian in good standing and vote for Barack Obama. His view toward Human life is not capable with Christianity.

...not when there is a viable pro-life alternative. This man favors infanticide, referring to infants born from botched abortions as "pre-viable fetuses". Anyone who holds that view is simply monstrous, whatever his views on fair taxation and social safety nets.

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[quote=Terry Bohannon]My vote could have been washed out with 4,000 voting from the grave in Houston alone. I hope the registers are cleared by election time.[/quote]

People from Florida have a serious problem with 30,000 felons registered to vote there. Since many municipalities do not want to ask for the proper ID in an apparent attempt to prevent people from voting, voter fraud is on the rise everywhere, especially in California. It looks like Nevada is the only state that is trying to address voter fraud.

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Can we be assured that abortion would decline under a McCain presidency? We've had 8 years under a Republican (a Republican who, by all accounts, seems decidedly more pro-life, or at least is decidedly more outspoken about his pro-life policies, than is the current Republican candidate), and to me it seems that, if there is any decline in abortion during these years, it is due to the trending of the country and not a result of presidential policies. That said, I will give Bush credit for that bill, whose name escapes me, that curtailed a lot of embryonic stem cell research; that was great.

But, despite Obama's reprehensible views on the permissibility of abortion - (of all kinds, not just partial-birth abortion) - I do believe, wholeheartedly, that he is committed to lowering the rate of abortion in this country, and he has publicly stated as much. The only reason I see for voting McCain in regards to abortion would be Supreme Court appointments, opening the way for the possibility of outlawing this holocaust. Aside from that, I frankly do not believe that abortion numbers would decline under McCain than they would under Obama.

Outside of the abortion matter, which I would classify as a gray area for me in terms of "Whose administration do I think would lower the number of abortion by the greatest number?", I prefer Obama in nearly every single way.

Am I worried also that a continuation of the War in Iraq leads to more death and destruction? Yes. Am I worried that the continuing divide between the rich and poor can, as history has shown, pave the way for events as gruesome as civil wars? Yes. The list could go on and on, but I have to take issue with Ray S.'s sweeping statement that good Christians can't vote for Obama. I consider myself to be a good Christian, believing in all the truths of the Church, and I want to see a decline in abortion as well as an improved quality of life for Americans and a renewed sense of what America is about...and I think we're about some really great things, things that have been raped and pillaged and left for dead on the side of the ditch during these last few years. McCain's record does little to sway my belief that many of these things risk being continued.

Despite my agreement with Obama on nearly every issue except abortion, and even though I am not at all convinced that his position on abortion would actually result in a different number of abortion than would occur under McCain, I would seriously reassess my support of the Democratic ticket if I could be convinced that under Barack Obama, the number of abortions would increase so much as to become larger than the number of lives I think would potentially be lost under a McCain presidency.

Now, you are all welcome to bite my head off!

Alexis

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Alexis,

I think what you have said is well reasoned and I'm sympathetic. You and I though might be thrown to the lions for it!

Joe

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Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by Ray S.
Its pretty simple. You can't be a Christian in good standing and vote for Barack Obama. His view toward Human life is not capable with Christianity.

...not when there is a viable pro-life alternative. This man favors infanticide, referring to infants born from botched abortions as "pre-viable fetuses". Anyone who holds that view is simply monstrous, whatever his views on fair taxation and social safety nets.

I believe that there was recently a relatively famous prolife Catholic canon lawyer who endorsed Obama while making it clear that his endorsement was in spite of Obama's position on abortion. The story I heard was that his priest refused him communion. So is this the policy of the Catholic Church now? If you vote for a prochoice candidate you should refrain from communion even if your vote is in spite of the candidate's position?

A second question: At what point do you think that the Roman Catholic Church will lose its tax exempt status for dictating to people how they should vote (using the fear of hell)?

Joe

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Funny that this question is being raised about Barack Obama - who was clearly born in the State of Hawaii, when it is John McCain who was born outside the United States:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23415028/

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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
A second question: At what point do you think that the Roman Catholic Church will lose its tax exempt status for dictating to people how they should vote (using the fear of hell)?

Joe

Joe (and Alexis)

I'll start with the first and go back to your other points later (I have to go pick up my son...)

The Catholic Church is not endorsing candidates. But it is taking an uncompromising view on voting for pro-abortion candidates, as well as the candidates themselves. Look - produce for me a liberal candidate from any party (even 3rd parties) whose views on abortion mirror the Church's, and you'll get no argument from me (for the most part). Certain issues are just more fundamental than others. You cannot get more fundamental than the human right to life.

As to the rationality of the Obama video, I suppose it does sort of follow the logic of the madman...

And it certainly borders on madness (ok - well at least denial) to think that abortion will go down with an Obama presidency, when his commitment is to increasing access and reducing barriers to abortion. Hardly a policy conducive to reduction.

Some time ago I posted some data on what George Bush has done for the pro-life cause. It is remarkable, especially when you consider the funding decisions the executive branch can and does make relative to this issue. Like the terrorist cells, George Bush has helped to dry up the funding streams for Big Abortion. He has also used the bully pulpit (albeit sometimes in a stammering way) consistently as a voice defending human life in the womb.

For my part, I wish there was a Democratic Party with a pro-life platform and pro-life politicians. There was at one time.

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
I believe that there was recently a relatively famous prolife Catholic canon lawyer who endorsed Obama while making it clear that his endorsement was in spite of Obama's position on abortion. The story I heard was that his priest refused him communion. So is this the policy of the Catholic Church now? If you vote for a prochoice candidate you should refrain from communion even if your vote is in spite of the candidate's position?
You are probably speaking of Douglas Kmiec. The decision to deny him Communion was just. If there are pro-life alternative candidates to a pro-abortion candidate then one must choose among them. The way of determining is to add up all the other issues of the day and equate them with the daily murder of 4,000 baby humans through abortion. To say “I am voting for the candidate who will retain legal abortion and even repeal the laws against infanticide (aka “partial birth abortion”) because he promises me (whatever)” is just beyond words.

Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
A second question: At what point do you think that the Roman Catholic Church will lose its tax exempt status for dictating to people how they should vote (using the fear of hell)?
I should hope that a Church would be willing to loose far more than its tax status in fulfilling its obligation to proclaim the Lord and His Teachings.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Funny that this question is being raised about Barack Obama - who was clearly born in the State of Hawaii, when it is John McCain who was born outside the United States:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23415028/
I suspect the story itself is nothing but politics. Still, it is odd that Senator Obama would not immediately produce the relevant documents and end the speculation. When the question about Senator McCain's citizenship arose (because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone) he immediately made public the relevant documents and references to legal precedent dating back to the time of the Constitution. Once the political motives were put aside there was no serious legal issue. Senator Obama would do well to release the documents and end the debate.

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But what if we truly believe, Admin, that perhaps a greater number of lives could be lost if we voted the other way? Or that number of abortions under the two administrations wouldn't be different, all other lives lost being taken into account? Then is it not acceptable to vote for the pro-choice candidate, despite his pro-choice position?

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Originally Posted by Administrator
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
I believe that there was recently a relatively famous prolife Catholic canon lawyer who endorsed Obama while making it clear that his endorsement was in spite of Obama's position on abortion. The story I heard was that his priest refused him communion. So is this the policy of the Catholic Church now? If you vote for a prochoice candidate you should refrain from communion even if your vote is in spite of the candidate's position?
You are probably speaking of Douglas Kmiec. The decision to deny him Communion was just. If there are pro-life alternative candidates to a pro-abortion candidate then one must choose among them. The way of determining is to add up all the other issues of the day and equate them with the daily murder of 4,000 baby humans through abortion. To say “I am voting for the candidate who will retain legal abortion and even repeal the laws against infanticide (aka “partial birth abortion”) because he promises me (whatever)” is just beyond words.

Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
A second question: At what point do you think that the Roman Catholic Church will lose its tax exempt status for dictating to people how they should vote (using the fear of hell)?
I should hope that a Church would be willing to loose far more than its tax status in fulfilling its obligation to proclaim the Lord and His Teachings.

I can understand what you are saying, but I must say to ban someone from communion because they possibly made a political mistake seems terribly unjust. Frankly, it makes me glad that I am not under Rome anymore. When a person who is unquestionably pro-life votes for a pro-choice person because he believes that there are issues grave enough to counterbalance the prochoice position, then I think he is voting in good faith and I think that if he is wrong, at the very worst, it is a mistake of political reasoning. But it is not a mistake of moral reasoning.

Joe

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