www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Moment of Consecration

Alexis,

There have been excellent responses to your post. If I may I offer a response from different perspective.

You posted ....I always feel strange when I attend the local Greek Orthodox church and people don't really do anything special at what we Latin Catholics consider the Words of Consecration, but then at the Epiklesis they of course kneel, etc.

I didn't think your question was theologically slanted, but rather that, based on your custom and reverence, it felt "uncomfortable" and your feeling that you were not properly acknowledging the wonderful Mystery of the moment.

I can relate to your feeling because up until last year our parish also knelt; with the RDL we now stand. However, during the words of consecration the people can bow their heads. This can/should be accompanied by a profound bow and sign of the cross after each intonation of consecration. Perhaps there wasn't enough emphasis on this with the revision to standing. I was also surprised by Alexis's statement that the GO knelt at the Epiklesis.

As the other posted have well stated, the Consecration doesn't have an "exact moment" in Eastern thinking; but rather it is BOTH the invoking of the Holy Spirit AND the words of Consecration which accomplish Christ's Gift.

I believe there is some thinking in the Western Church that the Epliklesis AND words of Consecration TOGETHER as a whole bring about the Consecration. It's just that the timing is reversed and the Words are the "final touch."

Just a final question to my Eastern brothers and sisters; it wouldn't be "improper" for Alexis, as a RC, to kneel, would it? I base this on the fact that, just as we may bow (instead of genuflect) and make our eastern Sign of the Cross, Romans may genuflect and make the western Sign of the Cross when they attend our parish. We respect their customs the same as we expect them to respect ours.

Fr Deacon Paul

I, for one, would not think it improper for Roman Rite Catholic to kneel in an Eastern Church at that time. (By the way, I have had Orthodox of different Eastern backgrounds - Georgian, Greek, Arab - adopt various positions during the Divine Services which raise Russian eyebrows, but I would never say anything to these people about conforming because they do what they do out of piety.)

I personally have a problem on the rare instances when I am present at a church when they kneel on Sunday or during the 50 Days between Pascha and Pentecost because it goes against my deeply ingrained piety to kneel or make prostrations on those days. If it is an Orthodox church, I don't feel too badly because I figure that I'm doing the right thing even if everyone else is not. But if it is a Western church I don't want to offend anyone with what appears to be impiety, but....

Fr David Straut

I could easily give a partial list of service-books from both Orthodox and Greek-Catholic sources which do not give this phrase in the Liturgy of Saint Basil - but I don't feel like doing it in the middle of the night (sorry about that).

I think I'm an Extreme Anaphorite!
Fr. Serge

Father Serge:

Father bless!!

Please don't take offense. I was just rtying to make an observation. Would you be kind enough to elaborate about where this inclusion originated? Is there some reason for why it may have been included in the first place? What seem to be the most ancient texts here?

Wishing to learn, asking for your blessing, and continued holy prayers,

BOB

Fr David,

Father bless,
I sincerely thank you for your reply. I was hoping that my understanding was correct. I understand your feeling that all shall remain standing during the Paschal season and this special time should be respected.

Fr Deacon Paul

the Blessing of the Lord!

Unfortunately my copy of Trempelas's analysis of the Divine Liturgy has developed feet. But I shall look in one or two other possible studies and see what I might come up with.

Fr. Serge

Dear Father Deacon Paul,

Apart from Roman Catholics kneeling at the Anaphora, the faithful of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada generally always kneel then as well (and also at the Great Entrance).

The reason for this was a pastoral one which soon became a tradition. The vast majority of the UOC of Canada were former Greek-Catholics who knelt at the Anaphora and at Holy Communion. When they joined the UOC of Canada, they continued to kneel and it would appear that they wouldn't stop kneeling . . .

So the hierarchy decided to allow them to kneel twice during the Divine Liturgy as per their usual - except that they were instructed to kneel at the Great Entrance and during the Anaphora. No kneeling was allowed at Communion. I've seen Orthodox faithful of other jurisdictions kneel at the Anaphora as well.

The tradition of kneeling in the East could probably be the focus of a long article (if such hasn't yet been written). At Pentecost, there is the tradition of the "Kneeling Prayers" to the Holy Spirit. Orthodox Saints would kneel in prayer as did St Seraphim of Sarov who knelt on a rock in the forest for 1,000 days and nights. The Old Believer Orthodox not only do not kneel but they actively dissuade their faithful from kneeling at any time for prayer. Standing for prayer is also the norm in Ethiopia where people will use a prayer staff and lean against a wall if need be to continue standing - although the tradition is to try and stand without any support for as long as one can.

Since making the Sign of the Cross and bowing at the Words of Institution are prescribed by our tradition, I don't see how one can do that properly while kneeling. In any event, standing only on Sundays and for the Paschal Season is prescribed strictly by Ecumenical Council.

Alex

ALEX:

I chuckled to myself when I read this--not at you. When I trained to serve the Latin Liturgy when it was in transition from the 1962 Missal to the later edition, we still said the Confiteor as servers and bent almost double while kneeling--not a comfortable stance. And the priest who trained me insisted that we had to be so parallel to the floor that he could put a cup on our backs and not have it spill. Then there was the move toward the priest while in this position at the words " and to you, Father." Actually it's almost like a full poklon except you don't finish by touching your forehead to the floor--you stay suspended for a period.

If I got down that far today, I'm sure someone would have to come by and pick me up.

BOB

Here in the Philippines, in the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Paranaque City, Metropolitan Manila, the congregation kneels for part of the Anaphora (the Epiclesis, if I remember correctly)

Everyone kneels, including a pious Russian lady who normally kneels then touches her forehead to the floor.

Dear asianpilgrim,

When Father Archimandrite Sergius Keleher was here, I believe he made a full prostration at the Epiclesis which I saw him do when he was concelebrating with other priests and our Vladyka Kyr Isidore.

No other priest did that and it was always heartening to see Fr. Keleher show such respect for the Holy Gifts!

Alex

Dear Alex,

For most of my life (I'm a late vocation) I knelt at the Anaphora and at Communion (while in the pew), except for the Paschal season. It was natural to "bend the knees" at this awesome coming of our Lord (and bowed at the same time.) I would never chastise anyone for doing so.

While at the seminary I became accustomed to standing. In my heart I am awed at this Mystery so my body's position is secondary. To me it doesn't matter what someone else's position is, whether they fully prostrate or levitate.

God's wisdom is wonderful.... perhaps the reason our body won't be with us in heaven until the Last Judgement is so that there won't be any quibbling about our bodily position when we approach His throne.

Go with God,
Fr Deacon Paul

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry it sometimes takes me a while to get back to threads I started. Sometimes I just get preoccupied with school, other times the few minutes I have to break I can't sit down and read through an entire thread like I'd like.

So, in sum, when Alex and others state that the Epiklesis is critically important for the transmutation to occur, where is this found in the Traditional Latin Mass? I've always been told there's an "implicit" Epiklesis there. Is that true? Is that satisfactory for all parties involved?

Is it: "Accept, most Holy Trinity, this offering which we are making to Thee in remembrance of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, Our Lord; and in honor of blessed Mary, ever Virgin, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of (name of the Saints whose relics are in the Altar) and of all the Saints; that it may add to their honor and aid our salvation; and may they deign to intercede in heaven for us who honor their memory here on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord?" That doesn't seem to call down the Holy Spirit, necessarily.

Also, Alex mentions that Byzantine practice assumes that each person makes a profound bow at the transmutation. I thought that when the priest shows the Holy Gifts, all are to make full prostrations (if able, of course).

Again, I'm an amateur in Byzantine liturgics, so have patience! You'd think after six years on this Forum I'd know when to prostrate or when to make a full bow, etc., but since I can only experience the Divine Liturgy every once in a while, it is no surprise I'm not overly familiar with things which generally stick in your mind after physical repetition and not just reading about it.

Alexis

The usual analysis, at least since the time of Saint Nicholas Cabasilas, is that in the Roman Canon the prayer Supplices, Te Rogamus . .. corresponds to the Epiklesis.

Fr. Serge

Father,

Bless!

Here's the text of that in English: Most humbly we implore Thee, Almighty God, bid these offerings to be brought by the hands of Thy Holy Angel to Thine altar on high, before the face of Thy Divine Majesty; that as many of us as shall receive the most Sacred + Body and + Blood of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this altar, may be filled with every heavenly blessing and grace. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

It's still interesting that there's no invocation of the Holy Spirit or God coming down; only His Holy Angel bringing the offerings before the face of His Divine Majesty.

Alexis

Dear Fr. Deacon Paul,

Yes, indeed!

I think it comes down to a question of how we express our utmost piety and adoration for our Lord in Holy Communion.

If it is kneeling, then we should kneel (in fact, Bl. Hieromartyr Basil Velichkovsky wrote in his diaries about how he would argue with Orthodox Christians who came into union with Rome under him in Volyn to remain standing, in Orthodox fashion, for the Anaphora and Communion - "but what could I do since they refused and they even knelt more times and for longer periods than our own cradle Greek-Catholic faithful!").

I'm all for standing and prefer to stand. But one should do the metanoia and be attentive - the problem with standing in my parish is that people just don't know what to do with their hands - or eyes, for that matter. One person beside me sat down during Communion and an elderly lady quietly remarked to him, "Sir, we stand for Communion here!" To which he replied brusquely, "Ma'am, I'm not interested in seeing who is going to Communion!"

Alex