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Joined: Nov 2001
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John
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David,

You are correct that there are exceptions, but I think that on the whole your post supports my point! People complained to the IRS about pro-death politicians preaching in churches, and the IRS followed up. Groups like American Athiests and the ACLU were not leading the charge like they lead it against Christians and other pro-life people!

John

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Originally Posted by Administrator
David,

You are correct that there are exceptions, but I think that on the whole your post supports my point! People complained to the IRS about pro-death politicians preaching in churches, and the IRS followed up. Groups like American Athiests and the ACLU were not leading the charge like they lead it against Christians and other pro-life people!

John
Is this a documented fact or an assumption? Aren't the members of the ACLU and the Am. Athiests "people" also?

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John
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Yes, it is documented fact. Christian / Pro-Life / Pro Traditonal Values people and groups are targeted by groups such as the ACLU. It is only logical since groups like the ACLU are openly committed to keeping religious expression from the political arena.

You wrote: "Aren't the members of the ACLU and the Am. Athiests 'people' also?"

Yes. Nothing in my post suggests that they are not.

The ironic thing here is that if a Church were taken to task by the IRS and took the matter to the Supreme Court it is very likely the current Supreme Court would rule in their favor (on the basis of free speech).

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This priest was way out-of-line and over the top

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I am proud and happy to assure you that my parish does indeed include some anti-abortion activists, who engage in occasional rescue work (they have to go to England to find publicly identified abortuaries), challenge "pro-choice" speakers, pray regularly on these matters, and so forth. They know very well that they have my full spiritual support. I only wish that I had more like them.

I am also proud and happy that despite all the pressure we get from the EU and the USA, abortion continues to be illegal in Ireland, and is forbidden by the Irish Constitution.

Fr. Serge

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Brian,

I would suggest you speak with your spiritual Father before making such claims.

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So, he's going to bully everyone into believing in life issues in the same order of priority as he does. All people have to do is just pretend to agree,but he can't make someone agree in their heart or conscience. I have no respect for this priest,he's a bully.

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I have no respect for any bully. I'm still recovering from the experience of a priest acquaintance who was threatened - by one of his own parishioners - with actual, physical violence for the "sin" of mentioning that he planned to vote for Al Gore.

Fr. Serge

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With all due respect the church puts abortion at the top of the list. The killing of an innocent babies is what made this priest say what he did. Like it or not what Obama will do for abortion is heartbreaking. The priest knows this and he knows Catholic dogma. He is not some bully or some apologist for the republican party.

For the record the US bishops have addressed some of Obama's plans for abortion this week. The "Freedom of choice" act would force abortion on Catholic hospitals. The bishops said they will close every Catholic hospital if this is passed.

When Obama starts doing what he has promised to do with abortion are all you Obama supporters going to find ways to justify it? Will you be surprised? What about when this bill is passed? What about the bill taking away conscince clauses, perental notifications, and forcing abortion on religious hospitals?

The Catholic church is very clear which issue is at the top of the list. The basis for all Catholic social justice is the right to life.

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Here's what James Francis Cardinal Stafford recently had to say in regards to the election of Mr Obama.

His Eminence James Francis Cardinal Stafford criticized President-elect Barack Obama as "aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic," and said he campaigned on an "extremist anti-life platform," Thursday night in Keane Auditorium during his lecture "Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II: Being True in Body and Soul."

"Because man is a sacred element of secular life," Stafford remarked, "man should not be held to a supreme power of state, and a person's life cannot ultimately be controlled by government."

"For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden," Stafford said, comparing America's future with Obama as president to Jesus' agony in the garden. "On November 4, 2008, America suffered a cultural earthquake."

Cardinal Stafford said Catholics must deal with the "hot, angry tears of betrayal" by beginning a new sentiment where one is "with Jesus, sick because of love."




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Originally Posted by Lawrence
Here's what James Francis Cardinal Stafford recently had to say in regards to the election of Mr Obama.

His Eminence James Francis Cardinal Stafford criticized President-elect Barack Obama as "aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic," and said he campaigned on an "extremist anti-life platform," Thursday night in Keane Auditorium during his lecture "Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II: Being True in Body and Soul."

"Because man is a sacred element of secular life," Stafford remarked, "man should not be held to a supreme power of state, and a person's life cannot ultimately be controlled by government."

"For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden," Stafford said, comparing America's future with Obama as president to Jesus' agony in the garden. "On November 4, 2008, America suffered a cultural earthquake."

Cardinal Stafford said Catholics must deal with the "hot, angry tears of betrayal" by beginning a new sentiment where one is "with Jesus, sick because of love."

With all due respect to the Cardinal his rhetoric here strikes me as a touch hysterical. Yes, Obama will do some very bad things with regard to abortion. But I do not think that he is bringing about the apocalypse.

Joe

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
I have no respect for any bully. I'm still recovering from the experience of a priest acquaintance who was threatened - by one of his own parishioners - with actual, physical violence for the "sin" of mentioning that he planned to vote for Al Gore.

Fr. Serge
The threats of actual physical violence against the priest were wrong and must be condemned. But if the priest voted for a pro-abortion candidate when there was a pro-life candidate on the ballot then he committed a sin. If he knew about the Church Teaching regarding abortion and life issues then it was a voluntary sin. If he did not know (which is hard to believe) then it was an involuntary sin. It is amazing how many priests only give lip service to the Church's Teachings on life issues and then vote against these Teachings at every opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Helen PR
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
I have no respect for any bully. I'm still recovering from the experience of a priest acquaintance who was threatened - by one of his own parishioners - with actual, physical violence for the "sin" of mentioning that he planned to vote for Al Gore.

Fr. Serge
The threats of actual physical violence against the priest were wrong and must be condemned. But if the priest voted for a pro-abortion candidate when there was a pro-life candidate on the ballot then he committed a sin. If he knew about the Church Teaching regarding abortion and life issues then it was a voluntary sin. If he did not know (which is hard to believe) then it was an involuntary sin. It is amazing how many priests only give lip service to the Church's Teachings on life issues and then vote against these Teachings at every opportunity.

According to Roman Catholic doctrine (especially as recently articulated by Pope Benedict XVI) one can vote for a pro-choice candidate even if the other candidate is not pro-choice as long as one has proportionate reasons for doing so. Now it seems to me that determining what is proportionate reason is not obvious. In fact, I can imagine all sorts of ways to produce proportionate reasons to have voted for Obama rather than McCain. I maintain that someone who voted for Obama in spite of Obama's position on abortion may be guilty of no sin at all as long as the person sincerely believed that there were proportionate reasons for doing so. Indeed, it may even be the case that the person who voted for Obama is incorrect in his assessment of the situation and therefore, was incorrect in his judgment of what constituted a proportionate reason. But this is an error of prudence and not something that should be subject to excommunication.

Quite honestly, I am very grateful for the relatively apolitical stance of Orthodox clergy in the United States. The hierarchy would certainly say that we should not vote in order to support abortion as a policy. But I think that our hierarchy realizes just how complex voting really is. For example, two priests I know voted for McCain and one did so because of Obama's view of abortion. But I was never condemned nor told that I had sinned because I voted for Obama (again, in spite of his position on abortion and not because of it). Also, I don't think I've ever heard a political sermon in an Orthodox Church (though I'm sure it happens) and I am grateful for that because I think that the Church is at her best when she focuses on spiritual issues and is not at her best when she becomes too much emeshed in political interests. It is the Church's job to preach that abortion is morally wrong and that those who procur abortions are guilty of murder and are to be punished accordingly. It is the Church's job to tell us that we are to be witnesses for life, against abortion and other crimes against life, and that we should do what we can to promote life and discourage abortion. But it is not the Church's job to tell us what political strategy is best for ending abortion.

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Joe,

What issues added together are more important than stopping the murder of over 4,000 babies each day?

Preaching against abortion and urging people to vote for pro-life candidates is a moral responsibility of clergy.

Helen

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TRULY IS A SAD STATE OF LIFE! If the Church doesn't speak out against it, who will?

Biracial Barack Obama's election is being hailed as a triumph for blacks. Obama's pro-abortion stand, however, is negatively impacting the black community.

New York State Health Department statistics reveal that in 2006, 41.5 percent of all babies aborted in our state were black.

Nationwide, blacks make up 12 percent of the U.S. population but have 35 percent of all abortions. Half of black babies conceived are aborted. Obama supports Planned Parenthood, which has 78 percent of its clinics in minority neighborhoods and whose founder Margaret Sanger was a racist, according to www.blackgenocide.org. [blackgenocide.org.]

Alveda King, niece of the late Republican Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., told lifenews.com, “I know in my heart that if Uncle Martin were alive today, he would join with me in the greatest civil rights struggle of this generation — the recognition of the unborn child's basic right to life.” Obama needs to stop promoting the abortion genocide that is destroying black children in disproportionate numbers!
http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20081117/OPINION03/811170335

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