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"But we have to recognize what an extremely provocative act this would be in the eyes of the Russian Orthodox Church and the other Orthodox Churches. Would the pain be worth the gain? "

Most assuredly. As a Patriarchal Church, Kyiv would have far more latitude to conduct dialogue with its Orthodox Sister Churches. Recognize that Moscow is never going to accede to anything that smacks of an independent Ukrainian Church, whether Catholic or Orthodox, but also recognize that Moscow's writ in Ukraine doesn't go very far. I believe, absent Moscow's interference, there are very good chances for reunifiying the Church of Kyiv, possibly beginning with a form of communicatio in sacris similar to that established between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East.

I also firmly believe that communion will be restored from the bottom up, rather than from the top down, since the people obviously want unity far more than their hierarchs. Only when presented with indisputable facts on the ground will they move to end the schism.

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If the Catholic Church cares about the relationship with their Orthodox brothers, recognizes the Orthodox Church as a sister Church and recognizes the validity of the Sacraments in the Orthodox Church Rome should not only NOT elect a Catholic Patriarch of Kyiv, but should move Vladyka Lyubomir to L'viv.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you as Greek Catholics pride yourseves on being the bridge that unites East and West. Well the election of a Greek Catholic Patriarch of Ukraine would serve as the exact opposite. It was serve as a division.

Are as Ukrainian Catholics prepared to take the responsibility of destroying the fragile relationship that exists between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches?

Is it a Christian action to elect a Catholic leader of a country that is predominately Orthodox? Is it a Christian action to cause offense to the Orthodox Bishops and faithful of Ukraine?

Finally if you are in fact "Orthodox in Communion with Rome", does that make us, Eastern Orthodox Christians schismatics without validity in our sacramental life? After all, if you are "Orthodox" than we are assuredly not.


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"I also firmly believe that communion will be restored from the bottom up, rather than from the top down, since the people obviously want unity far more than their hierarchs. Only when presented with indisputable facts on the ground will they move to end the schism."

Believe me that while Orthodox Ukrainians certainly want unity and independence, we will protect Orthodoxy until our last dying breath. I remind you that the hierarchy of Ukraine already accepted the unia once, however it was rejected by the simple Orthodox believers of our country. Surely you are not going to suggest that the fiercely patriotic members of various Brotherhoods that fought against the imposition of the unia in Ukraine were agents of Moscow.

Believe me when I say this. We will preserve the integrity of our faith Catholic Patriarch or not.


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The thread is off-topic and starting to head in a direction that isn't conducive to the spirit of the holy Season in which both Churches are at present. Thanks to those who participated.

The thread is closed.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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The following statement was made by Subdeacon Borislav on a closed thread:
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I hope you do see how that statement could not only be problematic but downright offensive to Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Christians.


Apparently this is not the case for many Orthodox Christians in Ukraine since both the hierarchy of the UAOC and the UOC-KP have addressed his Beatitude as Patriarch in correspondence and in person. Joint services such as Molebens, Panakhydas, etc. have been served by the chief hierarchs together, including the huge celebration with the copy of the Shroud. This does not seem like the kind of relationship those who hold grave offense would have towards one another. Since the UOC-KP alone is now the majority Orthodox confession in Ukraine, the combination of the UOC-KP and the UAOC would indeed be the majority of Orthodox believers in Ukraine. I will make no comment of "canonical" or "non-canonical" since this is to be decided between the Orthodox confessions themselves.

As was mentioned on the closed thread, the Union of Brest allows the hierarchy of the UGCC to be intact. Since we are not a Roman Church, and since the election of a Patriarch is not a dogmatic issue requiring intervention from the Church of Rome, but rather an internal election of a particular ritual Church, it is for the UGCC to decide.

As I mentioned previously, even in Orthodoxy as with Patriarch Mystyslav and other autocephalous candidates, "World Orthodoxy" does not always recognize the candidates to the Patriarchate immediately. In fact with Bulgaria it occurred even after Constantinople declared that church to be excommunicated and without grace. The Bulgarian Church did nothing during that time except be the Bulgarian Church.

Regarding Patriarch +Mstyslav, Subdeacon Borislav should ask his own hierarch Archbishop Anthony if he has ever commemorated +Mstyslav as Patriarch. I suggest he also read previous proceedings of his own Church's Metropolitan Council. In 2005 Resolution 16 stated:
"15. With gratitude acknowledges the labors of Dr.George Krywolap, Editor-in-Chief and the members of the Editorial Board of the Patriarch Mstyslav Commemorative Book. The Metropolitan Council commends them for diligently seeking out and recording for posterity important documents,which focus on the three offices served by the late servant of God: President of the Consistory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA, Metropolitan of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and the First Patriarch of Ukraine’s reborn Autocephalous Church.

Resolution 22 of the same council furthermore ends with this statement "...and in memory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Museum’s founder and benefactor, His Holiness Patriarch Mstyslav."

The series of resolutions from this council are signed by Metropolitan Constantine, Archbishop Anthony, and Archbishop Vsevelod. I'm sure more examples could be found, such as the 1990 instruction from the UOC-USA Consistory requesting Mstyslav to be commemorated as "His Holiness, Patriarch Mstyslav". If the point is that the UOC-USA has never considered +Mstyslav as Patriarch, that is certainly not borne out by UOC-USA conciliar documents signed by the hierarchs.

And we are being criticized for commemorating our chief hierarch as Patriarch?

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You so bad, Diak.

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I am a bit confused about some of these terms of church goverance in the catholic Church.
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As was mentioned on the closed thread, the Union of Brest allows the hierarchy of the UGCC to be intact. Since we are not a Roman Church, and since the election of a Patriarch is not a dogmatic issue requiring intervention from the Church of Rome, but rather an internal election of a particular ritual Church, it is for the UGCC to decide.


What does an "intact" hierarchy mean? Can you given an example?

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Regarding Patriarch +Mstyslav, Subdeacon Borislav should ask his own hierarch Archbishop Anthony if he has ever commemorated +Mstyslav as Patriarch. I suggest he also read previous proceedings of his own Church's Metropolitan Council. In 2005 Resolution 16 stated:
"15. With gratitude acknowledges the labors of Dr.George Krywolap, Editor-in-Chief and the members of the Editorial Board of the Patriarch Mstyslav Commemorative Book. The Metropolitan Council commends them for diligently seeking out and recording for posterity important documents,which focus on the three offices served by the late servant of God: President of the Consistory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA, Metropolitan of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and the First Patriarch of Ukraine’s reborn Autocephalous Church.


What is a "Metropolitan Council"? Is this an elected Sobor?
My church, the UOOC does not have such a body.

Also I don't see the connection. Are you saiying that the UOC-USA acknowledged Patriarch Mystyslav as its head as a patriarch?

The quotes you give to me seem to be referring to a specific committee and also to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine not in the USA.

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