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Beloved sister in Christ, Indigo,

Quote
They seem to have forgotten,along with most of the world, that Christ died for black americans too. We're not inferior to them, nor are we any more sinful than they are,but you wouldn't know it from their "Christian" articles.


I don't know their articles but I do not think, and I hope that they don't, wish to discount Black Americans!

Infact, as Americans we have much to be thankful for and to admire in the beautiful Christian spirituality which we know from our Black American brothers and sisters...

As Orthodox, we are always happy to have Black Americans join us in worship and in the faith. Every Holy Week, my parish has a wonderful priest join us from Africa. We all love him and respect him very much. Love in Christ has (and should have) no color!

Perhaps 'ebonics' can be considered as being synonymous with regional 'dialects' of other languages. That is kind of how I think of it...and there is often a sense of exclusiveness and pride in those who speak their dialects despite knowing the standard language of their country...I think that is fine, but that doesn't make it the ideal. Perhaps, in this context, one might not see the author as trying to be offensive. Just substitute 'liturgical dialect' and all of a sudden his intention is understood without offense.

Just some thoughts.

Be at peace, dear sister, and may you have a most blessed Pascha tomorrow, the feast of feast for us all! smile

With love in Christ,
Alice





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As a black Orthodox Christian, I have never felt snubbed in any Church I've been to or any Orthodox Christian for that matter.

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Dear tlduker,

Welcome to the forum!

I am so glad that you have joined the Orthodox Church. Perhaps, one day, you might want to share your spiritual journey that brought you to Orthodoxy... smile

May God bless your Palm Sunday and Holy Week,
Alice

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What is now lower-class/ghetto/slave "black English," which was (is?) called "Ebonics" in a bizarre attempt to "legitimize" it, is actually a very low class scotts-irish dialect, which was brought to the United States. Education and economic advancement wiped it out among the descendants of those who brought it here.

hawk

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I'm saddened when I go to say a Orthodox Mission Vespers (when people from many parishes meet at one church and have vespers during lent) and there are maybe 100 people and only 5 of them are kids and no teens are present. I'm saddened when I see churches that have the people but children don't attend so Sunday School is near to impossible to organize. I don't think there is one answer to this complicated problem. We have a picture of the kids at our church from many years ago.. there are like 127 children in the photo if I remember correctly.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy
I'm saddened when I go to say a Orthodox Mission Vespers (when people from many parishes meet at one church and have vespers during lent) and there are maybe 100 people and only 5 of them are kids and no teens are present. I'm saddened when I see churches that have the people but children don't attend so Sunday School is near to impossible to organize. I don't think there is one answer to this complicated problem. We have a picture of the kids at our church from many years ago.. there are like 127 children in the photo if I remember correctly.

Dear O.P.,

I don't understand....

Do any of those people who attend your church have school age children? If yes, then why not organize a Sunday School for their children at the same time as Liturgy? That way the whole family comes to church...

Alice


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It would be unusual to find many children or teens at weekday Vespers, at Lent or at any other time during the school year. Homework and stuff, you know. I should think you would be pleased to be getting one hundred people to show up for Vespers at any time.

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Originally Posted by dochawk
What is now lower-class/ghetto/slave "black English," which was (is?) called "Ebonics" in a bizarre attempt to "legitimize" it, is actually a very low class scotts-irish dialect, which was brought to the United States. Education and economic advancement wiped it out among the descendants of those who brought it here.

hawk

Interesting.

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"Interesting"

True, though.

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I hope someone does not speak of your usage of English in the same in terms of "class" and "badness". There are many different usages in the English language melting pot. There was time in this world the BBC set the standard of correctness in the usage of English and all dialects & accents were inferior and to go, as simply "bad English". Today we have learnt to appreciate the history and the developement of language. The history of the develpment of the English language is most interesting with some of the older usages still in daily use in North America when they have died back in Britain.

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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Some of Father's points are good, but the point about Liturgy is not. I believe that if we were to "update" and "modernize" the Liturgy, we would lose 90%, not 60%.

Joe

Agreed.

What surprises me is that way the loss of the youth is always interpreted as the Church failing to do what it should do. The fact is that many of the youth leave the Church precisely because the Church will not surrender on its principles. Sometimes, fidelity does result in temporary decline... this should not be a surprise.

The churches should have the courage not to permanently lose their best aspects for the sake of temporary successes.


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Originally Posted by StuartK
It would be unusual to find many children or teens at weekday Vespers, at Lent or at any other time during the school year. Homework and stuff, you know. I should think you would be pleased to be getting one hundred people to show up for Vespers at any time.

True on all accounts! I hadn't taken note of the word 'vespers'. If you have the children on Sunday, be glad!!


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Sorry Dochawk, but based on linguistic analyis and history that theory can be and,thankfully, has been long discarded, and is not true at all.
Alice, thanks for the food for thought, and tlduker, I'm glad you've had no problems. I've had good and bad experiences in both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches. (Like Alice, I'd love to hear your experiences too)

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Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
The churches should have the courage not to permanently lose their best aspects for the sake of temporary successes.
Pilgrim,

I don't think Fr. Salaris is in any way suggesting that the Church should try to do "whatever it takes," even at the risk of losing our best aspects.


Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
What surprises me is that way the loss of the youth is always interpreted as the Church failing to do what it should do. The fact is that many of the youth leave the Church precisely because the Church will not surrender on its principles. Sometimes, fidelity does result in temporary decline... this should not be a surprise.
I really don't think that very many of the youth reject the Church's principles outright until after they have either been "burned" by the Church and already have resentments against it, or they have grown up in ignorance of the those principles were and subsequently "formed their consciences" according to the prevailing secular philosophy.

I would hasten to point out, though, that faith is primarily a matter of the heart and not of the head. One can be familiar with all the catechetical "formulas" and this does not make him care about God or want to serve Him. I think catechesis has suffered for a long time due to a primarily information-based approach. It is not that information is unimportant, but the focus always has to be that we are called by God and are responding to that call.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Some of Father's points are good, but the point about Liturgy is not. I believe that if we were to "update" and "modernize" the Liturgy, we would lose 90%, not 60%.

Joe
I agree. I am attracted to Orthodoxy because its celebration of the liturgy remains traditional.

(emphasis mine)

Stuart, Apotheoun, Joe & Company...

Could we consider that you may have some biases based in your having come to choose Eastern expressions of Christianity? That you feel in love with and committed to this ideal or standard is a wonderful thing... But all the same, I have met so very many who grew up with this who are now not the least bit interested in these forms. Many are the times I have met folks who should be or were "ours" and was utterly befuddled by their disinterest in Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

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