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Originally Posted by theophan
You have to consider that many non-Roman Westerners think that the true form of Christianity followed westward through Rome, leaving the East in hopeless error, and that they have been in the same linear path, keeping the true form of Christianity by reforming Rome.

I had rather considered writing something similar lastnight... But my bed called and the hour was late.

But on a pragmatic level, when it comes to the dating of Easter, any number of non-Catholic Christians would be well out of the loop, and unity of all the Baptized is something that is important. More pragmatic still, Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians are as much attached to this dating system (for reasons most well could not explain) already, and "unilateral" moves by Rome to move the date would in turn cause as many problems later on down the line. It is worth remembering, China today has more Catholics than France and Ireland put together, and they (a) growing and (b) still only a tenth of the Christian population which is as much as not Evangelical and Pentecostal and growing faster still.

More than a few of us suspect (and I rather believe B16 himself understands this as well) that the future of Christianity is far more Eastern (Asian) and Southern (African) than most are imagining. Indeed Eastern Christians - of an East well different than that of the Imperium - are going to continue to be a growing source of influence and focus in the coming generations.

Given this, a certain wisdom is indeed to be found in simply accepting that different dates are used by different folks at different places, and YES, every single Sunday IS a little Easter.


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Originally Posted by Monomakh
Wouldn't it make sense for those who changed to change back and see the errors of their ways?! Or are they afraid of change?

In fact once this is taken care of, there are several other items that could use the same logic

I hate to be the cantekerous contrarian who everyone suspects always feels compelled to do a fashion review of the emperor's latest wardrobe...

But that is a rather loaded, simplistic and uncharitable way of not only presuming their ways are errant and that failure to "correct the error" is indicative of further recalcitrance. More bluntly this comment offers "They could finally admit how wrong they are or are they even weaker in character than we all had suspected?"

However convinced you are of the superiority of the Julian reckoning and unmoved you may be by the arguments for either (1) the proposition that the Gregorian dating DOES serve the canons cited (perhaps better!) or (2) acceptance of both systems (the stance Rome actually DOES take)... To be so dismissive of people of good will who have presented their case succinctly and without rancor, guile or polemic...

If at the end of the day this is the sort of drive-by swipe that is going to hold sway here, what little time I spend online and in forums is going to be lessoned more dramatically still.


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Somehow I am not inclined to think that the Chinese Catholics are particularly upset by the date of Pascha, or would be upset by a Catholic reinstatement of the traditional Paschalia. The Chinese Catholics have far more important problems to occupy their attention.

Almost every Sunday is a "little Pascha", but there are two exceptions: Palm Sunday and Pentecost. I've not run across anybody who wants to celebrate Pascha on Pentecost, but just a few days ago the West celebrated "Easter" on Palm Sunday.

["Easter", by the way, is not a Christian term - it refers to a spring festival connected with a minor Teutonic goddess.]

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by Ruthenian
... The Orthodox will not change the reckoning of the date, so hopefully the pope will change the CC's reckoning.
If the two calendars were on the same footing it would be something to consider. The two are NOT on the same footing -- see below.

Originally Posted by Ruthenian
I have asked people, "do you know what the date of Pascha is two years from now?" (answer, always "no"). "If there were a secret conspiracy to unify the date and the two sides actually came up with a different method entirely and so the date for Pascha ended up being different, would you have any idea or care?" (answer always "no")...
I've raised this point myself. Aleppo was an attempt to propose a third way. It was a disinterested solution that resulted in demonstrating, not surprisingly, the overall accuracy and superiority of the Gregorian calendar relative to the Julian.

Originally Posted by Ruthenian
The Orthodox are always more rigid, IMO, and probably /would/ care about which date Pascha was on if they thought there were any Catholic influence on any change or compromise.
Sad if true -- forget right or wrong, if it's Catholic it's unacceptable?

Originally Posted by Ruthenian
This is in spite of the fact that the two methods of reckoning are both complex and somewhat arbitrary and if they were switched you'd still have people claiming their method was correct. Because the Orthodox will not be flexible I say just make the date the same as they have it and be happy about one more tiny step toward being unified with them.
That approach may demonstrate that ignorance is bliss. The two methods are approximations that rely on tables, as has been discussed before. The problem is that the Julian method has a CUMULATIVE ERROR, which is a bad feature to have in a calendar. It causes calendar dates to move away from the seasonal events that are the reference points. The Gregorian calendar keeps these points stable around the given date, the vernal equinox, fixed at March 21 according to the purported Canons of Nicaea. The Julian calendar is off 13 day at the present, and the cumulative error is increasing. That is for the solar event, the lunar is also in error.

The bottom line, for those who say "follow Nicaea" -- just do the check, as I did this year, by getting the daily weather report. As has been established by even Orthodox writers and confirmed by Aleppo, Nicaea did not want any consideration to be give to how and when the Jews determined Passover. So that is not a factor. This is what I got from the local weather report for my place on the globe, longitude 39°11'N 76°40'W, following the Nicaean dictum, first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox (dates given are for the civil calendar):

Vernal Equinox: March 20, 7:45 a.m. EDT

Next full moon

Full Moon: April 9

Next Sunday

Pascha as per Nicaea: April 12

APRIL 12




ajk #319100 04/16/09 04:56 PM
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Actually, the Revised Julian, with which the Gregorian will be on the same date until 2500 or something like that, is more accurate than the Gregorian. But the Julian-Gregorian distinction really has nothing to do with the different dates for Easter and Pascha. Whether Passover must fall before it or not does.





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Father Serge,

Bless!

I'm glad you've brought up "Easter" vs. "Pascha."

I have to admit that I find the use of "Pascha" in English to be a little strange. In our language, the word Easter has traditionally been used to describe the Feast of Christ's Resurrection.

Whether or not it began as a feast to "minor Teutonic goddess" is beside the point, I think. The fact is that the word does not have this meaning now, and hasn't for centuries, and is today solely associated with Christ's Resurrection.

Use of "Pascha" to me just seems to be a strange rejection of what is the English word for this glorious event.

Not that I think it's a big deal. On the contrary, I think it's silly! I mean no offense to anyone at all, by the way.

Alexis

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
[...]
Almost every Sunday is a "little Pascha", but there are two exceptions: Palm Sunday and Pentecost. I've not run across anybody who wants to celebrate Pascha on Pentecost, but just a few days ago the West celebrated "Easter" on Palm Sunday.
[...]

Fr. Serge

Resurrectio Domini, spes nostra!

Father Serge, this could be seen as quite insulting to Western Catholics. What would you say if I were to claim that you were celebrating "Pascha" a week late, on the Octave of Easter? I am perfectly happy to celebrate Easter on the same date as our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, in accordance with the reform of Pope Gregory XIII of blessed memory, but I have no objections to your celebrating Holy Pascha this coming Sunday out of piety to the ancient and venerable Julian calendar. Why can't we respect each other's differences and not insist on being "right"? Why can't we show others the same respect we expect to be shown ourselves?

PS! The Norwegian word for Easter is påske. The etymology, I think, should be obvious. But there is no reason why the English-speaking world should not continue to celebrate Easter, regardless of the origin of the word itself.

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True enough smile

But they don't have an Easter Caandle in Church - it's a Paschal Candle smile , oh and it's the Paschal Season too - well in the UK anyway

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Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
True enough smile

But they don't have an Easter Caandle in Church - it's a Paschal Candle smile , oh and it's the Paschal Season too - well in the UK anyway
aka Eastertide... (in Norwegian påsketiden). And the paschal candle is called påskelyset.

We can't now go about changing English words with pagan etymologies. We would have to stop calling the days of the week Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, since they are named for pagan gods. How would you like to schedule a meeting for Midweekday or Fifthday? We would all have to start speaking Icelandic or Portuguese (or ecclesiastical Latin!), languages in which these references to the pagan gods have been eradicated. Sunday and Monday too are suspect, being dedicated to the Sun and Moon. Before you know it we would have to stop celebrating Christmas on December 25, because this used to be the date of an old pagan festival too. Where would it end?

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Originally Posted by rwprof
Actually, the Revised Julian, with which the Gregorian will be on the same date until 2500 or something like that, is more accurate than the Gregorian. But the Julian-Gregorian distinction really has nothing to do with the different dates for Easter and Pascha. Whether Passover must fall before it or not does.

Actually, no, no, and no. Misinformation about the Julian calendar(s) abound, are stated as fact and then repeated with great assurance.

You obviously have not bothered to read the numerous links provided to the neutral (Aleppo) or even Orthodox sources that debunk the points raised in this post.

1. As a solar calendar the revised Julian calendar is slightly more accurate, but the proper calendar choice, especially for church purposes, is one based on the tropical year, one that keeps the dates of the seasonal dates fixed, rather than the solar year. That is exactly because...

2. The "Julian-Gregorian distinction" has EVERYTHING to do with the dating of Pascha. You've got to explain why you say the opposite.

3. Any present Jewish dating of Passover is irrelevant to the Christian determination of Easter according to the uncontested method given by Nicaea.

As I reckon it, everything you've said is wrongheaded regarding the proper dating of Pascha. On what facts are your statements based?

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Originally Posted by ajk
Actually, no, no, and no. Misinformation about the Julian calendar(s) abound, are stated as fact and then repeated with great assurance.

Uh-huh. Of course, you just make this pompous statement, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Quote
2. The "Julian-Gregorian distinction" has EVERYTHING to do with the dating of Pascha. You've got to explain why you say the opposite.

3. Any present Jewish dating of Passover is irrelevant to the Christian determination of Easter according to the uncontested method given by Nicaea.

As I reckon it, everything you've said is wrongheaded regarding the proper dating of Pascha. On what facts are your statements based?

The difference in dates has absolutely nothing to do with the Julian (and when you use that term, be specific about whether you mean the Julian or Revised Julian Calendar, two very different calendars). Since most Orthodox are on the Revised Julian Calendar, if that were the distinction, we would be celebrating Pascha on the same day as the West. The difference is the Council of Nicaea, and whether Pascha must fall after Passover or not, which has absolutely nothing to do with the calendar.

It's Holy Week. I really shouldn't be engaged in this sort of debate, and certainly not with you. I suggest, however, that you look at a few Orthodox sources on the calculation of the date of Pascha.




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Most Eastern Orthodox do NOT use the "Revised Julian Calendar", so thanks for the example of misinformation.

Fr. Serge

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I was reading that the determination of Easter disregarded as to when the Passover began. (Nisan 15) Is this correct. Is not this the point of contention between East and West along with the inaccuracy of the Julian Calendar?
Stephanos I

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Somehow I am not inclined to think that the Chinese Catholics are particularly upset by the date of Pascha...

And on the score, I largely agree... But am left wondering why you are compelled to state this... I didn't offer that it was Chinese Catholics we have concerns over.

Re-read it, and you will note that it was NOT Catholics I was writing about in China.

As to the use of the term Easter... However fun a fact that is in the terms etymology... One is left to ask, how long need a term be used, and how vast a majority of speakers of a given language need to be had who would only ever identify the term with a celebration of the Passion and Resurrection before it is, well, in fact a Christian term.

More succinctly, I know of darn near no one who would ask for clarification when I wished them a Happy Easter... "Now are you meaning the celebration of Christ's Passion and Resurrection, or the holiday surrounding a minor Teutonic goddess from paganism?" This never has been, and I suspect never will be a question with which I have to deal.

Ever the radical moderate, I would offer (without thinking myself to be too revolutionary) that Rome's current stance (allowance and acceptance of multiple datings) is, at the end of the day, quite alright. Cutting through the semantics of "I've not run across anybody who wants to celebrate Pascha on Pentecost, but just a few days ago the West celebrated "Easter" on Palm Sunday." More than a few would well reply "No, we celebrated Palm Sunday on Palm Sunday, and Eastern on Easter."




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"Pascha" is an English word, and a perfectly good one - I just found it in eleven on-line dictionaries. One of its advantages so far as we are concerned is that it expresses the continuity of the Resurrection of Our Lord with the Passover.

Kali Anastasi!

Fr. Serge

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