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Originally Posted by Stephanos I
I was reading that the determination of Easter disregarded as to when the Passover began. (Nisan 15) Is this correct.

That is indeed correct. A number of posts by me and others have given links and references, even from Orthodox sources, that discuss the topic and clearly conclude that the intent of the Nicaean directive is that the determine of Pascha is to be totally independent of the dating of Passover.

Those who keep insisting and repeating that Pascha (Easter) must follow Passover need to reexamine what that means. Passover lasts for 7 days, and the "celebration" of the first Pascha itself, the Resurrection, whether one uses the synoptic or John's sequence of events, took place within, and not after those 7 days.

Consider the situation this year. For Passover it is stated:
Quote
Passover in 2009 will start on Thursday, the 9th of April and will continue for 7 days until Wednesday, the 15th of April.

Note that in the Jewish calander, a holiday begins on the sunset of the previous day, so observing Jews will celebrate Passover on the sunset of Wednesday, the 8th of April.
link [when-is.com]

So according to the Gregorian and astronomical reckoning, using the above and the information I provided in a previous post:

March 20 vernal equinox
April 8 Wednesday night, begin Passover -- meal
April 9 full moon
April 12 next Sunday, Pascha
April 15 end Passover

Coincidentally, much like the timing as in the Gospels. So why having to wait an extra week? I use this only as another example of the inconsistency in the erroneous insistence on the need for Pascha-after-Passover.


Originally Posted by Stephanos I
Is not this the point of contention between East and West along with the inaccuracy of the Julian Calendar?
Stephanos I
Yes.


-----------------------


I sincerely wish those about to celebrate the Resurrection a blessed and holy Pasch. I say that with fraternal affection and joy. There is no good reason that we should not be celebrating our common feast of the Resurrection at the same time. There is also no good reason why that should not be done in best conformity with the directives of Nicaea.

Last week, looking up in the sky, as usual for the celebration of Great Week and Pascha, the moon was very full. That is something I've looked forward to seeing. Those who will observe Pascha on the 19th will do so well and with devotion. But knowing the directives of Nicaea, directives that they insist be followed, they should look up in the night sky and ask, "how full is our Paschal moon?"

ajk #319291 04/18/09 04:51 PM
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Kali Anastasi!

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
I hate to be the cantekerous contrarian who everyone suspects always feels compelled to do a fashion review of the emperor's latest wardrobe.
Then perhaps it would be best to just stay silent.

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
I hate to be the cantekerous contrarian who everyone suspects always feels compelled to do a fashion review of the emperor's latest wardrobe.
Then perhaps it would be best to just stay silent.

Ahh, the recluse comes out of reclusion for advice so sound, I have given my own self such before, and as often as not (when I read this forum anymore) I actually DO follow!

That is to say when I actually do get around to checking into this forum anymore and reading it, as often as not, I leave it in about the same state I came, gracing it with my silence and not afflicting or challenging the established with opinions outside of what the chorus sings.

If and when I respond and get such responses, it only confirms me in my more common decision to remain silent.

Have a terrific day and keep me in your prayers.

ajk #320210 04/28/09 10:58 AM
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Quote
Last week, looking up in the sky, as usual for the celebration of Great Week and Pascha, the moon was very full. That is something I've looked forward to seeing. Those who will observe Pascha on the 19th will do so well and with devotion. But knowing the directives of Nicaea, directives that they insist be followed, they should look up in the night sky and ask, "how full is our Paschal moon?"

Oddly enough, the discrepancy has to do with sidereal time, so when looking up in the sky one would do well to look beyond the moon!

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
Have a terrific day and keep me in your prayers.

APPLAUSE!!! Wonderful come back!

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Quote
Last week, looking up in the sky, as usual for the celebration of Great Week and Pascha, the moon was very full. That is something I've looked forward to seeing. Those who will observe Pascha on the 19th will do so well and with devotion. But knowing the directives of Nicaea, directives that they insist be followed, they should look up in the night sky and ask, "how full is our Paschal moon?"

Oddly enough, the discrepancy has to do with sidereal time, so when looking up in the sky one would do well to look beyond the moon!

Fr. Serge

Very odd indeed since it is not true!
It seems an effective justification of the Julian calendar/paschaliion is to keep repeating (we've been over this before) the same erroneous statements as though they were fact. What makes the statement even more absurd is that the Julian calendar/paschalion is not based on sidereal time either.

A good calendar, one that keeps one special season, or all the seasons on an average fixed to (a) given calendar date(s), is NOT BASED ON SIDEREAL TIME. Neither the old Julian nor the Gregorian calendars are based on sidereal time, but rather on what is called tropical time. For the case of a Christian calendar, this is not even the mean (average) tropical time based on all the seasonal changes (at equinoxes and solstices) but one special seasonal change, the northern hemisphere spring equinox (also called solar time).

Furthermore, according to the accepted prescription, Pascha is the Sunday following a full moon. I can understand why some would prefer "to look beyond the moon", however, since its phase is quite telling. Considering "Nicaea", judge for yourself (eve of Pascha; virtual images from the US Navy website link [tycho.usno.navy.mil]; civil calendar dates):

Gregorian, April 11, 2009 --- 20 hrs ET
[Linked Image]









Julian, April 18, 2009 --- 20 hrs ET
[Linked Image]





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Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
If and when I respond and get such responses, it only confirms me in my more common decision to remain silent.
LOL! Not quite common enough!

You are always in my prayers.

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Originally Posted by Monomakh
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
I've addressed this question several times already and will not rehash the argument here. Just take it as a given that there is an important body of Christians who are not about to change the Paschalia. Those who so passionately want a "common Easter date" are welcome to use the one that we use, should they so desire.

Fr. Serge

Amen Father!

Wouldn't it make sense for those who changed to change back and see the errors of their ways?! Or are they afraid of change?

In fact once this is taken care of, there are several other items that could use the same logic smile

Monomakh

The issue, the problem, is that the address-ing and the subsequent amen-ing ignore that the original hash-ing conveyed faulty information and argued based on the acceptance of erroneous facts that are then inexplicably repeated even after being informed of the correction. Consider that first and then by all means apply the logic and determine who's afraid of change?


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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Just take it as a given that there is an important body of Christians who are not about to change the Paschalia. Those who so passionately want a "common Easter date" are welcome to use the one that we use, should they so desire.

Fr. Serge
Amen Father!

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Just take it as a given that there is an important body of Christians who are not about to change the Paschalia. Those who so passionately want a "common Easter date" are welcome to use the one that we use, should they so desire.

Fr. Serge
Amen Father!

One is entitled to a last refuge in a simple "Amen," but realize, at the least, that it ultimately is against facts, reason, sun, moon, seasons and the prescriptions commonly accepted as deriving from the First Council of Nicaea.


ajk #320227 04/28/09 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk
One is entitled to a last refuge in a simple "Amen,"
Thank you.
Originally Posted by ajk
but realize, at the least, that it ultimately is against facts, reason, sun, moon, seasons and the prescriptions commonly accepted as deriving from the First Council of Nicaea.
I have been reading your "facts".
I'll stick with Tradition.

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Originally Posted by Recluse
I have been reading your "facts".
I'll stick with Tradition.

Always stick with Tradition, but be willing to see traditions for what they are.

I do not want to misrepresent the issues or facts, so please inform me of any wrong or misleading information that you think I may have advanced.

ajk #320234 04/28/09 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk
I do not want to misrepresent the issues or facts, so please inform me of any wrong or misleading information that you think I may have advanced.

I am not accusing you of misrepresenting anything. It is obvious that this subject is near and dear to you. However, the Orthodox (and some Eastern Catholics) are very pleased to celebrate the pious Julian Calendar (or revised Julian).

Besides, the Holy Fire in Jerusalem will not ignite if we were to change to the Gregorian obsevance. wink

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Originally Posted by Recluse
I am not accusing you of misrepresenting anything. It is obvious that this subject is near and dear to you. However, the Orthodox (and some Eastern Catholics) are very pleased to celebrate the pious Julian Calendar (or revised Julian).
Wrong about the "near and dear" -- I have, however, become determined that this subject not be misrepresented (on this forum at least) as it has been in the past, and that rather blatantly.

Originally Posted by Recluse
Besides, the Holy Fire in Jerusalem will not ignite if we were to change to the Gregorian obsevance. wink
Just winking speculation and as I understand it, something that would not be a problem.





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