www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pope Benedict and the SSPX

Dear Friends,

One article I came across discussed the views of the some of the SSPX leaders who met with Pope Benedict in August.

They said the Pope appeared "anxious to approve" worldwide usage of the Tridentine Rite, but has to consider the possibility of a revolt from the "liberal bishops" if he did.

He told the SSPX that they must remain loyal to Rome and accept the teachings of Vatican II - the SSPX said it was shocked by the latter request.

But they took a "let's wait and see" attitude.

Alex

Alex,

The only SSPX bishop who met with His Holiness (or is it His All-Holiness? ) was Bishop Fellay, the Superior General. He was accompanied by his assistant, Fr. Some-German-Name-That-Starts-With-An-S.

Bishop Fellay has recently spoken a little more freely about his meeting with the Pope, saying that some French bishops (including Lustiger) rushed to Rome in 2000 to make it clear to JPII that they would consider leaving the Church if he were to allow for a universal indult. Fellay said something to the effect that a similar situation occured with some of the German bishops during WYD this year.

Fellay said he recognizes that the Pope is basically stuck between a rock and a hard place, with the liberals on one end "and us" on the other.

Some may doubt the Superior General's account, but I cannot say that I do. Whether or not one agrees with Fellay and with the positions of the SSPX, I think it's pretty clear to all that its bishops honestly believe in the importance of their cause, which they see as holy. I don't think Bishop Fellay is the kind of man to fabricate stories such as this. No one from Rome has denied any of his details concerning his conversation with the Holy Father, either.

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

Well, I hope His All-Holiness the Pope can see his way clear to granting them their universal indult.

I hazard to guess that many bishops might be afraid of this since many of their flock would flock to the Tridentine liturgy rather than to the NO. That is what happened up here when the RC Cardinal granted an indult (he found out his RC's were attending SSPX churches and were actively giving donations for an SSPX cathedral . . .).

The Jesuit Director of the Martyrs' Shrine certainly didn't think of the SSPX as "schismatic" since he allowed them to come, en masse, by way of pilgrimage.

I hope the matter can be resolved soon. And if the Tridentine Rite gets a lot of adherents who want to attend Sunday Mass according to the old ways . . . what is wrong with that, if the Church gives its approbation?

I'm not Latin, so I really don't know. But when I attended a "folk Mass" once, the music was enough to give me some serious gastric problems.

I'm not kidding. I was afraid to leave for fear of offending my priest-friend next to me (who insisted I "experience" that), but I thought "just one more minute of this noise and I'm going to up . . .).

There are NO Masses that are done with great dignity and spirituality, of course.

Perhaps this is my Byzantine bias speaking, but I really see nothing wrong if ALL RC's returned to the Tridentine liturgy.

So people pray longer . . . it's not as if our times don't need more prayer.

Have a great day!

Alex

Dear Alex:

No, Bishop Fellay did NOT demand this nor is the SSPX, organizationally, demanding this. They are ALREADY celebrating the TLM in all of their parishes!

The SSPX, represented by Bishop Fellay, put 2 "demands" on the table during the August 29th meeting with Pope Benedict:

(1) allowance of the TLM celebration by all Catholic priests worldwide, what you call "universal indult;" and

(2) approval and recognition of the ordination of the 4 SSPX bishops, against Vatican orders, by the late Archbp. Lefevre, including Bishop Fellay.

Amado

That's not bias, its common sense.

Dear Amado,

I don't understand how what you quote me saying contradicts your first point . . .

Alex

Dear DocBrian,

Well, all I can say is that I've never met a Tridentine Catholic who was liberal in theology to the point of denying doctrine (or seeming to do so) or who was not tremendously pious etc.

One woman who used to work with us was a lapsed Catholic but went to a Tridentine Mass (Society of St Peter) up here.

She liked it so much that it pulled her to come back until she is most scrupulous about attending Church.

And she never fails to tell everyone that she is a Catholic!!

Alex

Up here in Toronto I beleive there are only 3 (non SSPX) parishes that celebrate the TLM, of which I have attended 2 of them.
If there was a TLM parish closer to me I'd go more, however, I am fortunate to be within a 10 minute drive of a UGCC parish ( Link [stspeterandpaul.com] ) where, there too is heaven on earth.

Dear Brad,

Well, I guess that is the next best thing . . .

The photo gallery of the south wall of St Peter and Paul's, as indicated on that site, has the icon of "All Saints of Ukraine."

Among the New Martyrs, there is St Theodore Romzha.

Alex

I don't think universal indult is of importance for me.
What I found of interest is the correlation between NO vs Tridentine with the degradation of faith.

Beside I don't think there is correlation between being pious with Tridentine Rite. Before NO, did all Catholic pious?

I mean, almost all discussion about this topic I see in internet focused more in North America and Europe (correct me if I'm wrong).

How about Africa, Asia, and other places?
I believe the NO has great deal of importance with church growth.

This is an often overlooked insight, the NO has had a considerable part to play in the expansion of the Faith in Africa and Asia, especially with the use of the vernacular.

One could argue that the Tridentine liturgy could have done the same, but since the 1960's it did not and most Roman Catholics alive today were not born yet when the Mass of Pope Paul VI was promulgated, most Roman Catholics know no other liturgy.

I think the Tridentine liturgy is beautiful and dignified but the church should concentrate on revising the NO in small steps toward greater dignity while looking back to the Tridentine Mass for inspiration. Why not start with the beautiful monophonic chant of the tradition? Leave the polyphony of Josquin Desprez and Palestrina for really special Holy Days.

I also think the clergy who may celebrate both liturgies should not use two sets of vestments, the same type of vestments should be used regardless of the liturgy to help reinforce the idea that the Divine Liturgy of the West is everywhere and always the same, even if it's outward actions or manifestations seem to be different. A standard of vestments should be decided upon for all Masses.

+T+
Michael

There are already several models of vestments traditionally received in the Western Church. What would be the point of abolishing them?

Incognitus

Certainly, much of the vestments that've come into popular use in the Latin Church since the close of the Council don't adequately reflect the dignity of the sacerdotal office and the fact that the priest represents Christ Himself.

Where's the use of precious gems and metals and gold that were often used for "Tridentine" style vestments and are still used by many Eastern Christian priests but have been almost wholly forsaken by every ordained Roman Catholic priest, from your parish rector to the Pope?

EWTN does the best jobs with "Novus Ordo" vestments that I have seen; much better than what they do at the Vatican, ISTM.

Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen,

Outside of a choice of fabric and materials, the style of current Latin vestments is a revival of 6th century vesture. There is a book put out by Holy Cross Orthodox Press entitled, "Orthodolx Liturgical Dress", by Archimandrite Chrysostomos, that explains the development of both eastern and western litugical vesture.The "fiddle-back" vestments were a much later development. Please do not envy some of those on the eastern side though. If you could see some of the vestments I have seen and the material used :p .

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father Anthony,

I'm sorry, I should've been more clear; I don't have a problem with the style of modern Roman Catholic vestments (although personally I prefer the Roman chasubles - and what ever happened to the maniple?), I just have a problem with the materials and fabrics that are chosen, like you said.

The 70s were tacky enough, but I don't understand why some priests (or, perhaps more accurately, vestment-producers) choose to go retro with the ugliest 1970s-looking crap I've ever laid eyes on!

I've yet to see Eastern vestments that weren't at least tastefully done. Not all of them are exquisite or of fine material, but I've never seen any that I really dislike. Then again, I can count the number of Orthodox liturgies I've attended on one hand, and the number of Eastern Catholic churches I've attended on the other!!

The Gallic styles of vestments used in the Traditional Mass is pretty similar to the new style of vestments. I prefer Roman chasubles because they look like armor, i.e., the priest is vesting for battle as a Soldier of Christ.

I also have a weird fixation with lace albs. They're just so darn cool!

Logos Teen