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Will Saint Peter's Become a mosque? [crossroadsinitiative.com]

I think we are in REEeeeaaaaalll trouble here...

This is the devastation wrought in large part by contraceptive practice and a contraceptive culture.

Something Muslims reject.

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Constantinople remained Constantinople until a decade or so after the fall of the Ottoman Empire - Attaturk's government decided to make "Istanbul" the official name of the Queen City. Don't ask me why one Greek name is more Turkish than another Greek name ("Istanbul" is simply an attempt to provide a phonetic spelling for the Greek expression eis tin Polin, which means "to the City", used much as the inhabitants of Westchester or northern New Jersey will spontaneously use the same expression referring to New York, as in "I'm going to the city tomorrow; is there anything I should bring you?"). To this very day, Greeks in Athens will spontaneously speak of "the city" to mean Constantinople.

Fr. Serge

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Deacon Daniel,

Thank you for posting this. smile

One comment WRT Dr. D'Ambrosio's comment that "every Christian must become an evangelizer."

This will not be accomplished by means of training and techniques; it will happen when more and more Christians become thoroughly convinced that God is more important by far than anything else in their lives.

I need to begin with myself--how often do I act as though God were just one concern among many in my life? Can I begin to fathom the immensity of His love, which leads not to complacency, but ever to more and more action?

It is a grace to be able to put God first in all things, but one God will willingly give if we want it badly enough. It is also a grace to want it badly enough ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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This will not be accomplished by means of training and techniques; it will happen when more and more Christians become thoroughly convinced that God is more important by far than anything else in their lives.


Deacon Richard:

Christ is Risen!!

So true. Yet, with the paltry numbrs of Christians who actively practice the Faith, and even those numbers having so many who see their Sunday Mass as another activity, I'm not encouraged.

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It is a grace to be able to put God first in all things, but one God will willingly give if we want it badly enough. It is also a grace to want it badly enough ...


Again, so true. But so many seem not to be open enough to let that grace in.

I belong to what many would consider to be a very active parish. Our choir numbers about 75 people--nmore than the local cathedral. We take in a good number of people each year through our RCIA process. We have lots of activities going on. But only about 33% support the parish financially via their envelopes. The same small number of people make up the active committees. So despite the numbers and the crowded pews, I could envision a time when the palce would empty like the churches in Russia during the Revolution. I seriously doubt that a real hard-hitting persecution would leave us the number we have.

Then there is the situation my son has lived in--large parish and he's the only person between the ages of 18 and 35. And he belongs to a Bible study group made up of about two dozen people in the same situation, non of whom are in the same parish. So 25 parishes with no one between the ages of 18 and 35 in a large metropolitan archdiocese. I'm not optimistic.

In Christ,

BOB

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It is almost inconceivable that the center of Christianity would shift from one city to another but it happened once before. Could it happen again? Jerusalem became untenable as the center and so it shifted to other cities and settled eventually in Rome.

Now that Europe has become almost untenable as a host for the center of Christianity and the third world is bustling with Christian converts is it conceivable that someday we will be talking about the eternal city of Abuja or New Dehli? I doubt it but the Vatican is becoming a Catholic island in the midst of a pagan or Muslim sea.

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Perhaps a realistic possibility might be to put the Syro-Malankara Catholicos into New Delhi, and the [Coptic Catholic] Patriarch of Alexandria in a solid Catholic section of sub-Saharan Africa - with, of course, full jurisdiction in both cases.

But I'm not really visualizing Saint Peter's turning into a mosque anytime soon!

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This is very worrisome, to say the least. I have this constant concern, not expressed generally, that we are slowly being invaded, infiltrated, whatever word you want to use ... by the Muslim faith and its proponents. I must freely admit that I know little of their belief system, other than the contradictory things I hear which range from a "terrorist" faith to a faith of peace.
In line with that ... can anyone suggest a book I might read which would give me a general overview of their belief system? I think a lot of us, who heretofore have been rather apathetic when discussing this, need to wake up and realize just what we're dealing with.
Any suggestions would be appreciated ... I really don't want something too heavy or deep ... basically what is their truth and what isn't?
Many thanks ...
abby
<*)))><

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I will rather blow up St. Peter's than see it become a mosque

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Any thing by Bernard Lewis on the subject. Bat Ye'or is good as well. For a very brief overview which doesn't really confront the aggressive nature of the religion read Mary Pat Fisher, "Living Religions" Ch. 10. On the web look at Jihad Watch.

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While not all Wikipedia articles are equally good, I think the one about Islam is excellent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

It is also important to realize that there is huge variation within Islam, just as there is within Christianity.

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BOB,

Indeed, He is risen!

I realize my statements may seem a bit facile, but there are some facts of our Faith that keep coming back to me, and I have to express them.

First and foremost is the fact that I have within me the greatest power in the universe, and the reason I am not setting the world on fire is because I haven't allowed Him to set me on fire.

Originally Posted by theophan
... with the paltry numbrs of Christians who actively practice the Faith, and even those numbers having so many who see their Sunday Mass as another activity, I'm not encouraged.

... so many seem not to be open enough to let that grace in.
My second point is that it has to begin with me. That's why all the statements in my previous post were in the first person. I am not accountable for my brother's faith, except for doing my part to help build and nurture it. If, in order for my brother's faith to be strong enough to resist persecution, my own faith must be twenty times stronger, then that's what it must be. Let me never forget that the source of that faith is right within me, even though it is not my own.

Originally Posted by theophan
... I seriously doubt that a real hard-hitting persecution would leave us the number we have.
I think it is quite naive to expect otherwise. We know that persecution is a very harsh test and produces many apostasies. Let us all pray that we may not be like the original "number forty" of the Forty Holy Martyrs, who decided to save himself and died the next day anyway.


Originally Posted by theophan
... I'm not optimistic.
If "optimistic" means blissfully ignorant of these facts and certain that *something* will happen to put things back as they were, then indeed it is good not to be optimistic.

If, however, it means having faith in Our Lord's power to restore His Church ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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If "optimistic" means blissfully ignorant . . .


Deacon Richard:

Christ is Risen!!

No, I meant that I am not optimistic that things will return to the way they seemed to be in the middle of the 20th century in the West: where the veneer of Christianity seemed to be more solid than veneer. I meant that the future does not look bright for Christians to be making any sort of inpact on the world in which they live as they have for the past millenium and a half.

I believe we will see a tough future ahead. That being said, I also believe that the Lord holds out tremendous graces for those who remain faithful to the end, awaiting His coming. In a way it might be good for those who have thought that the Kingdom is to be found in the secular city right here and now.

But, then, I've never been optimistic about the way people around me seemed to put their faith in a little pigeon hole and went about their lives as if it were a tie one saved for Sunday but irrelevant for any other day.

In Christ,

BOB

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I have to say I find all of this rather depressing. While I do not agree with the Muslim faith I must say they are not all crazy bomb throwing radicals. I was born and lived the early years of my youth in Saudi Arabia and never once had a run in with a Muslim, neither did my parents. Yes there where problems with the Mutaween<religious police> If one broke with the customs of the land. That being said the average Joe on the street could care less. My father had many Saudi friends and they showed me nothing but kindness.

The fact that we are contracepting ourselves out of existence is hardly their fault. They are flourishing and we are dying out and naturally they are going to keep their faith.

I think what is getting to me about these posts is the attitude<granted from my perspective>that what I am hearing is OH MY !!! The Arabs are Coming The Arabs are coming !!!! Yeah they are but they aren't all nasty people that are throwing bombs. If we want our faith to survive it is up to us to save it folks. We are to blame.

In Christ:
Einar

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Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!)
Voistinu Voskrese! (Indeed He is Risen!)

only a few more days until Ascension Thursday! Find something green to wear!

I watched the video and read the posts. The numbers on the video are indeed surprising and even startling. But I'm not panicking yet. Nor should anyone else. I hate to say this, but the video was almost ridiculous. The intent was not to educate and let people know about something that should be brought to their attention. It was simply to frighten people. I do voiceover work for commercials, documentaries and such. I was in radio as a dj and talk show host for almost 20 years. I taught radio at a Big Ten University for over ten years. I can hear the director of that video telling the voice over artist "you need to sound more ominous, more threatening! I want people's eyes to pop out of their heads! I want them to drop their coffee cups!" The delivery was a scare tactic, nothing more or less. I'm not arguing the numbers or the math. I will presume they are correct. But that doesn't mean the end result of the numbers will be a continent where the burka is paraded down the catwalk in Milan or Paris.

First off, we have to presume that the Islamic world is actually intent on destroying Christianity. I don't believe that. Some of the people in Islam certainly are. But not all of them. I would say it is a minority that wants to destroy the west and Christianity. What would happen if the Pope or any Patriarch ordered every Christian to take up a gun and attack every Muslim? Would you do that? How many Christians would do that? Not very many. But we have had calls for Muslims to do just that. How many Muslims are running around the streets with AK-47's right this minute? We just saw a video where the numbers are almost staggering. But are those large numbers of Muslims shooting anyone right now? No. But the call has been put out to do just that. So if they aren't doing it right now, why would they do it in 20, 30, 40 or 50 years from now?

The reality is that most Muslims are peace loving people. If not, the world would have already been a planet with the worst world war in history raging this very minute. But it's not. Most Muslims want the same thing we all do--just to get along. To live a decent life (and see their kids have a better life than they did--which is why the immigrated to Europe and North America in the first place!), live in peace and be free to worship (if they choose to) in peace. Face it, not every person born a Christian attends church or donates to the church. Well, not every Muslim attends the mosque or supports it either. Believe it or not, not every Muslim practices their religion fully. I know, one of my nieces in Pittsburgh is married to one. And there are plenty more out there just like him. Don't get me wrong--most Muslims are very family and mosque oriented. They do believe and practice their religion. But not every person born into a Muslim family enjoys stopping what they are doing and getting down on their knees to pray five times a day.

And if their numbers are increasing and ours are decreasing, as others have said in this post--it's our fault, not theirs. We need to look at our own house to see the problems in our society. I don't believe France will be an "Islamic Republic" in several decades. Not in the sense that most people think of when they hear the words "Islamic Republic." Will there be a majority of people who are Muslims or descendants of practicing Muslims? Most likely. I won't dispute the math. But that doesn't mean there will be a crescent moon mounted on the Eiffel Tower. France will still look almost exactly as it does today. Only instead of churches with spires, there will be rounded domes and minarets. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with that. It will still be a mostly wonderful place to visit or live, the food will be great (if a little heavy with butter and cream) and the people who live there will still be rude to tourists who deserve it and nice to tourists who try to speak the language and respect the culture. I don't expect to see a mosque overlooking the Normandy beaches anytime soon. Not going to happen. Nor will the statue of the Little Mermaid in Denmark be covered up because it is offensive. If it hasn't happened now, it won't happen in the next few decades.

I also have faith in my God and the Holy Spirit, who will make sure it doesn't happen. St. Peter's will not become a mosque, now matter how funny the idea of camels running between Bernini's columns may be. It won't happen.

Tim


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