www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Universal Salvation??

I'm hoping that this has not been discussed in a previous thread, but in any event would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

While surfing the net on day awhile back, I came across this link to a lecture on the website of (Russian Orthodox MP?)Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev in which the Archbishop discusses "St. Isaac of Nineveh and Syrian Mysticism". Is this the St. Isaac of Syria?

St. Isaac of Nineveh and Syrian Mysticism - Universal Salvation [en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org]

In this particular part of the Archbishop's lecture, he addresses St. Isaac's teachings / beliefs on the issue of universal salvation.

I've read of the idea of universal salvation before. It's discussed by Archbishop Kallistos Ware in - I believe - The Orthodox Church. However, I do not recall Archbishop Kallistos' thoughts on the subject as having been quite as extensive as those of St. Isaac in Archbishop Hilarion's lecture.

Of course, St. Isaac is considered a saint to the Orthodox Church and I believe is a saint to the Catholic Church as well, but as wonderful - and loving - an idea as "US" is, it does give me pause...

From everything I've ever read - sadly, not enough, I'm sure - on the teachings surrounding the "Last Things" according to Orthodoxy and Catholicism, the fate awaiting unrepentant sinners is eternal damnation. Logically then, it seems that St. Isaac would have been anathematized rather than glorified as a Saint.

Anybody care to teach me? Thanks to all!

In OLGS, Jesus Christ.

S

Universalism is rejected as wrong because it violates free will. We can hope there are no people in hell but Jesus himself was clear on the terrifying possibility of ending up there for ever. God says: your life, your choice!

Saints including church fathers can have wrong opinions especially before the church has decided on the matter in question.

I'm curious to hear what people think about something I've been pondering as of late. God foreknows who will be saved and who will be damned. Now, let us suppose that there will be some people who are eternally damned. My question is this. What is the purpose of keeping these souls in existence so they will suffer eternal torment? Why shouldn't God simply annihilate these souls?

I realize that this is a mystery only known to God. But if God wills that certain souls exist forever in a state of torment, then there ought to be some good reason for it.

And I don't think that universalism contradicts the reality of free will since it is certainly not impossible that all will (in the end) freely submit to God.

Joe

Joe, the option of those damned souls was to live without God in an egocentric attitude. So God doesn't do more than to respect the desire of those souls. The suffering they have is precisely that: to be distant of God. And we could say that they live in joy (in the joy of their egocentric option), but without happiness.

Check out St. Gregory of Nyssa and the doctrine of Apokatastasis.

Check out Maximos the Confessor, who said of it, "One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."

I like it!

And check out Gregory of Nazianzus on whom St. Maximus sourced a lot of his work.

JOE:

To destroy is not part of Who God is. He creates and He gives free will. He never takes back the gifts He gives because that would be a negation of Who He is. To destroy the free will He has given to one of His creatures would seem to negate the gift of free will.

And the idea of Hell we've discussed before. I really like the Orthodox vision of it. Those who are in bliss have the fire of God's love burning within them and become "at one" with Him as the dikiri has two flames become one, though not losing their separateness. And so us. Those who reject God are still participants in the Divine Fire. They have closed themselves to His entry into their innermost being and are embraced by Him on the outside--thus being burned by His love rather than being warmed by it.

I've also considered this. Those of us who eagerly await His coming will be in bliss because He is all we've hoped for and will be happy just being with Him. Those in torment will be eternally unhappy by being in God's presence, asking themselves, "Is this all there is?"

BOB

Try to remember that God does not condemn us, we condemn ourselves. The Uncreated Light and the fires of hell are one in the same.

Can I get a source for that?

This could be difficult to image. Consider the hell it would be to spend eternity in the presence of the Christ who died for you because He loved you so much and and yet you freely chose to reject Him. So you spend eternity in the presence of that love (the Uncreated Light) that you rejected. And the Lord continues to weep over your decision.

It would indeed be difficult to imagine rejecting God under such circumstances, which may be what gave Gregory of Nyssa the audacity to imagine the cosmic Apokatastasis, in which God, who desires all men to be saved, somehow manages to do so without violating the free will with which He himself endowed mankind when He made us in his own image.

It is a great mystery, but I pray that it is indeed true. I also don't teach it as doctrine.

Joe,

To annihilate a soul doesn't seem, as Bob says, in keeping with what God is: the Creator.

In my mind, too, it seems unjust to annihilate souls, since whatever souls go to Hell truly do deserve it.

Alexis

Words can be said easily, but are we aware, does our souls tremble that we will answer for every word?

Let us be be silent and not talk about theology, please. We were given the Holy Evangelia, which is clear.

In these sad times of this sad century of this sad world, let us stay in prayer, and ask humble for mercy of God, for the redemption of our souls, of our beloved ones, of this entire world.

God help.

marian+