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Hey! I'm also an Orthodox Christian in communion with the Church of Rome - I am, after all, a Roman Catholic.

Alexis

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As long as you are willing to concede that the Orthodox are Catholic Christians not in communion with the Church of Rome.

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Ge'ez is the name of a language.

Indeed, it is - now only used as the liturgical language of the Ethiopians, Thus, using it as a desriptor of 'Rite' is akin to decribing the Ruthenians or Ukrainians as being of the Church Slavonic Rite.


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Irish makes the proper point--one can speak of a Ge'ez rite which is, in a number of ways, different from the Coptic rite, though both are "Alexandrine" rites. Perhaps one could elevate the Alexandrine liturgies to a "family" in the taxonomy of rites, which would allow one to speak of Coptic and Ethiopian rites, or one could demote the Coptic and Ethiopian rites to "usages", in the sense that the Byzantine rite has Greek and Slavonic usages, and several variants under each of those.

On the other hand, looking at the Latin Church, there are indeed various "Rites" that are distinct from one another: Roman, Ambrosian, Mozerabic, Gallic--each with several distinct usages. The so-called Sarum rite, for instance, is actually a usage within the Roman rite.

The unfortunate problem is nobody has established a clean taxonomy or agreed on a single set of terminology and definitions.

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StuartK said: As long as you are willing to concede that the Orthodox are Catholic Christians not in communion with the Church of Rome.

I certainly don't concede that. That doesn't mean I don't like them.

Alexis

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Well, I do concede it. If the Orthodox are deficient because they are not in communion with Rome, Rome is deficient because it is not in communion with the Orthodox. Nous somme tous schismatiques, to quote a wise Greek Catholic bishop.

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Sorry but tous schismatiques is branch-theorism or 'there is no church'. No sale for Rome or the Orthodox. The standoff continues.

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Christ is Risen!!

Whether Catholics in Communion with the Bishop of Rome like it or not, Orthodox Christians have as much claim to being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that we mention in reciting the Nicene Creed as we do. The local Church is the fullness of that in its own way and we are still coming to understand what that means. We ave focused on the universality of the Church because of our historical experience and the Orthodox Church has focused a bit more on wht it means to be the Church in a particular place. Both focuses are simultaneously needed for a full appreciation of the Mystery of what constitutes the Church.

And for those who don't wish to concede it, I'd suggest reading again the documents of Vatican II. While we may say--and do say--that the Catholic Church mentioned in the Creed susbsistit in the visible Communion of the Bishop of Rome, it also says that there are degrees of being in communion with the visible Catholic Church and that the Orthodox Church is in the greatest degree of being in that communion though not visibly. Gone are the days when we referred to our Orthodox brethren as schismatics. Today it is a matter of grieving that we cannot find the way to visible communion when we share already the Mysteries visibly shared in the first millenium.

In fact, when we consider the stumblings we Catholic Christians have had in the past century and during the second millenium, we have the greatest need for the prayers, experience, holiness, and common heritage of our Orthodox brethren, a heritage that they have faithfully lived, preserved, and sanctified through lived experience and suffering. And a past triumphalism that looks down on the Orthodox Church is simply sinful pride that has helped keep alive a schism that began with diverse ways of looking at the same Mystery but evolved into the current situation because of two men who surely lacked humility and the love commanded by Christ for brethren by Baptism. So the whole world took up opposite positions over time because one tried to excommunicate the other without even having tghe authority. (Oh, that we'd had cell phones in 1054!!)

BOB

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CHRIST IS RISEN!

There is no drastic shortage of Roman Catholics who take Metropolitan Elias (Zoghby's) thesis as set forth in his book Tous Schismaticque quite seriously. One can also find Orthodox Christians who take the same thesis equally seriously.

Fr. Serge

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Different strokes. I'm pretty sure no minds are going to be changed here. It's been discussed ad nauseam on this Forum. I've yet to see someone with a complete change of heart.

Perhaps it is better to focus on that with which we can all agree.

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"However, a prayer service is, by definition, an act of worship. As long as we are talking about Christian prayer, I do not see an issue in doing so in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament."

Amongst the difficulties is that Protestant clergy are unlikely to make the proper signs of reverence to the tabernacle and the Catholic clergy cannot omit them.

So when they enter the sanctuary the priest must genuflect and the Baptist minister according to his beliefs must not. This kind of split seems opposed to the idea of an ecumenical service.

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But they both stand together before the Lord who made them, and offer Him praise

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Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
But they both stand together before the Lord who made them, and offer Him praise

Exactly!

Shalom,
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Originally Posted by StuartK
one can speak of a Ge'ez rite which is, in a number of ways, different from the Coptic rite, though both are "Alexandrine" rites. Perhaps one could elevate the Alexandrine liturgies to a "family" in the taxonomy of rites, which would allow one to speak of Coptic and Ethiopian rites, or one could demote the Coptic and Ethiopian rites to "usages", in the sense that the Byzantine rite has Greek and Slavonic usages, and several variants under each of those.

...

The unfortunate problem is nobody has established a clean taxonomy or agreed on a single set of terminology and definitions.

Actually, it would be more useful (and accurate) to speak of Coptic and Ethiopian 'Traditions' within the Alexandrian Rite, as with the Greek and Slav Traditions within the Byzantine Rite.

Many years,

Neil (who thinks it may be time to resurrect and/or update our thread on the taxonomy of the Rites & Churches)


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Dear All,

We are about to have the annual Clonard Novena here in Belfast, and the tradition is that speakers from other churches are invited to preach at the masses. They are always well received and it does a great deal for inter-church relations, which are (to put it mildly) somewhat strained in this part of the world!

Interestingly, though, we've yet to have a speaker from the Orthodox church (there is an Antiochian parish, St Ignatius of Antioch, on the Antrim Road in North Belfast - the only Orthodox presence in the North of Ireland, to my knowledge). And I wondered: Fr Serge, have you ever been invited to Clonard to speak?

Best regards to all

Craig

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