www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pennsylvania priest, becomes schismatic

Lord have mercy on us and on the whole world!

We were discussing the thing with the so called 'orthodox bishop', now this. I just don't understand people.

2 Timothy
Chapter 4

1
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power:
2
proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.
3
For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers
4
and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=4070

Bible verse link http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2timothy/2timothy4.htm

Well - he has been schismatic for a good few years now so one has to presume he knows what he's doing - but he's not doing it the Church's way

While I do not agree with his action, I would not judge this priest too harshly. The Altoona-Johnstown Diocese is a mess. The bishop is not supportive of those who wish to use the Extraordinary from and fails to discipline a cadre of openly practicing homosexual priests instead suspending priests who call him on the carpet for it. The group he joined professes no heresy that I can see.

http://naorc.org/naorc_belief.html

I agree with Father Deacon Lance. At one point in time I would have judged such an action with great harshness. And now I see that in a majority of cases where a priest or layman does something like this the cause is usually with the larger Church, and that the individual hurt by the Church was pushed to the breaking point. While I cannot condone the action, I can pray for a full resolution and full healing, and for the salvation of all involved.

On the use of the Extraordinary form of the Mass, Pope Benedict XVI guaranteed the right of every Latin Rite priest to celebrate it, and forbid local bishops from either prohibiting it or enacting unreasonable barriers to its celebration. Local to me, the RC Bishop of Arlington has welcomed this, and only insists that priests who wish to celebrate the Extraordinary form of the Mass learn to celebrate it correctly. About 2 years ago, when the motu proprio on this was announced, I just happened to be attending Mass at a RC parish. When the priest announced the coming return of the Extraordinary form the entire congregation applauded.

the RC Bishop of Arlington has welcomed this, and only insists that priests who wish to celebrate the Extraordinary form of the Mass learn to celebrate it correctly.

Wish that some Bishops would require some priests to celebrate the Ordinary Mass correctly...

PS...I'm back, but I have a feeling this mickey mouse fix won't last...

Glad to see you again James - hope you can hang around for a good length of time .

I'm actually wondering just why this news item [ no not the return of Jakub ] has come into prominence now - some 6 or more years - since this priest finally left the RC Church

Roman Catholic Bishops must retire when they are 75 years of age. Bishop Joesph Adamec of the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese is due to retire next year according to Roman Catholic Church law on age limits for an active bishop.

Unless he is granted a five year extension of his tenure, which is often pro forma, except when the Holy See has real issues with the bishop in question--or there is no viable alternative to the incumbent.

Deacon Lance is correct in his appraisal of NAORC. It's one of a half-dozen or so US jurisdictions that, although lacking any ongoing canonical connection with the Old Catholic Church of the Utrecht Union, can legitimately claim that their Churches continue to follow the precepts and praxis of 'Old Catholicism' as it developed historically. (That's something that Utrecht itself can no longer claim, given its episcopal and presbyteral ordinations of female clerics in recent years).

The NAORC's episcopal lineage is from Bishop Arnold Harris Mathew whose episcopal consecration was at the hands of Archbishop Geraldus Gul, about whose own episcopal validity there is little doubt. Among Mathew's own episcopal descendents there are those, such as the Theosophists - Willoughby and Wedgwood - who are most often dismissed out-of-hand as having lost canonical legitimacy, if indeed they ever had it. However, the Mathew line that traces through Prince DeLandes Burghes and Carmel Henry Carfora is almost invariably perceived as having validity and it is that line from which the NAORC's Archbishop Vellone descends.

Many years,

Neil

My apologies to those who are bored to tears by my ramblings about the world of independent, vagante, Old Catholic and other non-mainline "Catholic" and "Orthodox" hierarchs and their episcopal family trees.

It just occurred to me that, aside from Daniel/Iconophile and myself - who share a fascination with the genre, there are probably few here who have much interest in the phenomenon - and many more who are reduced to narcolepsy by the cataloguing of folk whose names and curious histories are meaningless to them.

Many years,

Neil

I find it's fascinating - I may not [ indeed do not ] understand a lot of it , but it can be helpful when you are trying to explain to someone else that this 'priest' or that one are priests only in their own eyes .

Neil, I, too, find it quite intriguing.

That the NAORCC has not succombed to the heresy of female presbyters is a good thing.

@ Administrator:
It should be noted that the use of the Trent/Extraordinary form is permitted for private masses, not for the regular sunday, daily, and holy day masses for the parish. The bishop may, but is not required to, permit sunday, daily, and holy day masses for the public to be done using the EF. The bishop must, if there is a stable and reliable demand, provide a scheduled EF, tho' not of need an EF-only parish, nor even a single stable location....

Some bishops have even done some "end runs" which serve the needs better; a few have done other end runs to impede.

Archbishop Schweitz of Anchorage has required any cleric wishing to serve the EF publicly to be trained upon it. He has several in training; they should be approved after their next session, scheduled for next summer. In the meantime, however, he has requested the Dominicans assigned to the Cathedral to provide a monthly Dominican Latin Mass. They do, it's popular, and they love doing so. And most of the "trads" don't realize the difference. Those who do know grouse about it.

Dear Neil;

I am glad that we have among us one so knowledgeable
about these people whom I cannot begin to understand.It seems to me
that they find it amusing to spit in the face of God by playing
at religion,but,to the extent that any of them are sane,
there must be more to some of them than that. But what?

Ed

I'm interested in this stuff too, Neil, and am acquainted with one of these bishops and the two regulars in his small congregation.

The Old Catholics (the now liberal small denomination in northern and central Europe under their archbishop of Utrecht) have been burned so many times by clergy leaving them and setting up vagante churches that they've given up on having churches in America. It's pointless anyway, they logically say, now that they're liberal and in communion with the Episcopalians. So, they say, if you're American and you like them, go to the Episcopal Church.

(The relatively conservative Polish National Catholic Church was long the Old Catholic presence in America but they left a few years ago because the Old Catholics are now too liberal, with women priests now and probably gay weddings soon.)

Besides coming in conservative and liberal (lots of gay ones) versions I understand American vagantes come in two general types. Those who came from Carfora's 'line'* tend to be real churches - priests with real credentials (including ex-RC priests like Carfora and Mascherino) in charge of small but real congregations - whereas the Vilatte line tend to be people with no training or real ministry playing priests.

I understand the motu proprio means no restrictions on the EF, end of story. But of course '70s-bred bishops are still blocking it.

Anyway a chapel on the site of the Shanksville crash is natural and a fine idea. I don't think NAORC's presence there will outlive Mascherino. Frankly I think its presence there is Mascherino, full stop.

*'What's my line?' The vagante game lives and dies on a view of holy orders where you positively claim objective validity outside an official church so vagantes unlike RC, Orthodox and Anglican clergy talk a lot about their 'valid lines of succession'. Which is funny when they claim to be Orthodox, to people who know Orthodoxy.

Although I'am not Polish, I have an interest in the PNCC. There history within the Polish community in Chicago is quite fascinating, particularly there relations to there RC neighbors.