www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Praying people out of hell

Father bless.

Very well said! I agree 100%.
May God grant you many graces this Nativity season!

Fr Deacon Paul

I am interested in learning more about this. Are there any Orthodox books that delve into this? Thank you.

Anthony

I think this may stem from the Orthodox understanding of what Hell is.

Since our God is a Living Fire and those who love Him experience their hearts being set on fire with love for Him, and since those who don't experience His Fire find themselves with Him wrapping Himself around them because He loves even those who hate and reject Him, it seems that prayers on their behalf are for the purpose of some sort of repentance that allows them to open themselves to being set on fire like those who have loved Him throughout their lives in this place of testing. It points to a Mercy that is beyond our comprehension and I see it as the immense generosity that is poorly reflected in the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard. All who finally have their whole lives focused on being at-one with the Living Fire have the same reward, even those who come late to the game: gazing on Him and praising His Holy Name forever.

BOB

Anthony:

I would like to know that too. I have found some that allude to it, Puhalo's works, and Peter Mohyla; but nothing that address this specifically. Let me know if you find one.

Thanks

Anthony, I don't know of any book on the topic. I would doubt if there is one.

Theophan, a nice piece of writing.

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P.S. It crossed my mind that we could look for a scholarly piece of writing about the transition in meaning of the phrase in the Roman Liturgy for the Dead: "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu." It moved from a literal understanding as a prayer for the deliverance of souls from hell to something else.

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The Catholic Encyclopedia has a brief comment on this phrase in which it rather reluctantly admits that God may free souls from hell...

"...........In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Father Ambrose:

Father bless!!

Some time ago we had a thread that asked if we believed in a literal Hell. From my study of Orthodox theology and other sources, I found this ida of the distinction between Heaven and Hell. It makes so much sense to me that I can tell people that I do believe in this distinction.

That we will experience God, the Living Fire, in eternity in one way or another seems to be a given. He sustains all of us in being, even Satan who hates Him from all eternity. God does not destroy anyone or anything He has created, honoring the free will He has given us.

What greater life can there be than to be on fire with love so that the Beloved is at-one with us? Like the dikiri, the two flames become one without losing the distinctive fact that each is coming into the relationship as a separate being. The embrace of the One for the created that permeates one's whole being is a mystery that seems to have warmed believers in every age. So God lives deep in here where I live and in the place where He sees the most hidden thoughts and impulses. For the believer, Heaven begins now because I carry Him within me, especially when I am privileged to receive Him in Holy Communion.

On the other hand, I can't think of any greater torment here than to be in the embrace of one that a person does not love. Imagine being forced to marry someone you despise, for example. How much worse for all eternity?

This concrete way of looking at the question makes perfect sense to me as the answer to the question of whether there is a Hell as distinct from a Heaven.

Asking for your blessing and continued holy prayers,

BOB

Merry Christmas!
or Happy Saint Finnian's Day!

'Tis frenzy blind,
'Tis witlessness, 'tis madness wild--
Since still to deathward all life tends--
To be unfriendly with Mary's Child.

- Airbberteach Mac Coise Dobrain (990)
__________________________
Life of Saint Finnian of Clonard, Teacher of
the Saints of Ireland
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints/message/3267

While on first glance it may appear that with the notion of "praying souls out of Hell," we are confronted with a significant difference between the Eastern and Latin Churches, I suggest that the difference is much smaller in reality.

First we need to make a clarification: when we speak of "Hell" in this context, we are not speaking of gehenna, i.e., the "place" or state of final condemnation subsequent to the Final Judgment. We are speaking, rather, of the intermediate state.

Theoretically, the Latin Church considers the particular judgment (the judgment experienced by the individual soul immediately after death) and the final judgment (the judgment experienced by all at the final resurrection) to be virtually identical. The judgment of the first will never be reversed by the latter. Why? Because the final orientation of the individual, either toward God or away from God, is definitively set at the moment of death. At that moment the individual will discover whether he loves God (however imperfectly) or hates God. Those who love God imperfectly must first undergo a process of purification before entering into the fullness of eternal joy and beatitude; but the final destiny of the souls in purgatory is certain. Theoretically, therefore, it would seem that the Latin Christian must reject the claim that we can pray people "out of Hell."

However, given that no one, this side of death, can know whether any individual human being has, in actuality, eternally rejected God (we do not know this even for Judas Iscariot or Adolf Hitler), the Latin Christian may and indeed must pray for the salvation of all the departed, without exception. So even though Latin and Eastern believers disagree on the "fluidity" of the intermediate state, they do commend and practice prayer for all the departed and together may hope for the ultimate salvation of all humanity.

Father Kimel:

Father bless!!

A story in the Desert Fathers, by Helen Waddell presents an interesting thought. To paraphrase:

Abba Macarius the elder was walking in the desert and came on a skull lying on the ground. He moved it with the staff he carried and the skull spoke to him. Macarius asked who the skull was and it answered that he had been a priest of the heathen who used to dwell in that desert. The skull also said that he knew who Macarius was and that whenever he (Macarius) prayed for those who were in eternal torment they were a bit consoled in that torment. Macarius asked what could such a consolation be and the skull replied, "As far as the sky is distant from the earth, so deep is the firebeneath our feet and above our head. And standing in the midst of the fire, there is not one of us can see his neighbor face to face. But when (you) pray for us, we (can) look upon each other, and this pass(es) . . . for consolation." Macarius, weeping, said, "Woe to the day in which man was born, if this be the consolation of his pain."

My own opinion is akin to those who don't want to speculate too much about things we have very little knowledge of. I trust in the boundless Mercy of God and keep everyone in prayer who has gone before me, as well as everyone who still continues his pilgrimage.

BOB

Father, I do appreciate that that may be the Latin teaching and it is indeed how the ancient "Libera" prayer from the Latin Requiem liturgy for the dead has come to be understood.

Now of course anybody may be prayed for in the "intermediate" state. We do that and our Oriental Orthodox brethren do that and you do that. But the Copts have, only recently, changed their ancient way of praying and have stopped praying for those in hell (they see it as an aberration since nobody may be delivered from hell - this view comes from Patriarch Shenouda and in this you and he would be agreed.) The rest of the Orthodox world continues to pray for those in hell. Hopefully God will use our prayers to liberate Copts from hell now that their brethren have stopped praying for them.

It is indeed the eve of the Nativity, when lion and lamb lie down together, for Father Ambrose and I are in agreement on this: in the Byzantine Orthodox Tradition, we indeed pray for souls in Hell, in addition to those in Hades. Those of us who hope for the Apokatastasis of all things really don't have much choice in the matter, do we?

I thought the idea of an apokatastasis was condemned in the 2nd Council of Constantinople?

Blessed Pope Pius IX and St. Pope Pius X condemned all sorts of things we now believe in today. Maybe belief in some sort of the apokatasis is not completely false. Dare we hope?

These are very mysterious matters and as such are way over my head.

The apokatastasis of Origen, not the apokatastasis of Gregory of Nyssa.

sielos ilgesys:

I personally find myself to be a fan of ther late Fr. Rahner's idea of the "Anonymous Christian", when it comes to after-life eligibility!