www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Praying people out of hell

There is a thing on facebook called become a spiritual child or Padre Pio. This was the post today:

Padre Pio said, "Maybe you don't know that I can even now pray for happy death of my great-grandfather." "But they have been dead many years," replied the doctor. "For the Lord, the past doesn't exist; the future doesn't exist. Everything is an eternal present. Those prayers had already been taken into account. And so ...I repeat that even now I can pray for the happy death of my great-grandfather."

Prayer for Those in Hell

It was particularly characteristic of Staretz Silouan [Saint Silouan of Mount Athos] to pray for the dead suffering in the hell of separation from God... He could not bear to think that anyone would languish in "outer darkness." I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, "God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire."

Obviously upset, the Staretz said, "Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire -- would you feel happy?

"It can't be helped. It would be their own fault," said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance. "Love could not bear that," he said. "We must pray for all."

http://books.google.com/books?id=SZ...20bear%20that%20st%20silouan&f=false

From The Inner Kingdom, Volume 1 of the collected works of Bp Kallistos Ware

What scriptural basis is there for the belief that souls can be prayed out of Hell ? I personally hold out for the slight chance that souls could be released from Hell, but I see where it could become a very dangerous teaching.

2 Macc 12: 39-46
King James Version
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Kjv2Mac.html

Good point, Lawrence. Can anyone reference Scripture to reinforce "praying people out of Hell(Gehenna)?

God's Mercy MAY allow it....but what about His Justice? If one accepts that the condemned themselves reject God by CHOOSING Hell, can our prayers help them to change their mind? This is the key argument that will give the answer. I, myself, would not even try make this judgment. The best scriptural argument that I can think of is Mt 7:1-2

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

There are many scriptural references to God's Mercy...but there are just as many references to His Justice. Perhaps this is why no mainstream Christian Churches consistently teach of "praying people out of Hell."

Fr Deacon Paul, who will continue praying for my deaceased family and friends without judgment.

I have been pondering upon our current topic and how we may be able to add another dimension into our discussion.

[Linked Image]

Who are the figures? What are they doing? Who is the central character? Who are the other figures and why are they there? Where are they? Who is at the bottom of the icon and what is happening to him? What are the implications for us and upon our discussion?

Ray

Father Ambrose:

Bless!

in your earlier post, did you say that the four part division of the states of the after-life (Gehenna, Hades, Paradise, Heaven) is not generally held in Orthodoxy?

I thought it was an officialy taught doctrine or at least generally established in the Orthodox Churches.

I think (could be mistaken) I read it in Hapgood.

I confess I do not know what to make of the liturgical prayers for those "imprisoned in Hell." I presume that these souls, if there be any such souls, have died in a state of mortal sin, i.e., in a state of definitive rejection of the mercy and love of God. I do not understand how the prayers of the Church can effect a post-mortem conversion from self to God. Has not such a person already decided for self against God? Is not the time of choosing already concluded?

But I hope that it is true.

The praying for the dead in Maccabes is part of why it was stricken by the protestants...

An interesting quote from Saint Martin of Tours which backs up Saint Augustine's statement that many in the early Church believed in universal salvation, even including for the devil.

“If thou, thyself, wretched being, wouldst but desist from attacking mankind, and even, at this period, when the day of judgment is at hand, wouldst only repent of your deeds, I, with a true confidence in the Lord, would promise you the mercy of Christ.

Martin preaches Repentance even to the Devil.

Now, the devil, while he tried to impose upon the holy man by a thousand injurious arts, often thrust himself upon him in a visible form, but in very various shapes. For sometimes he presented himself to his view changed into the person of Jupiter, often into that of Mercury and Minerva. Often, too, were heard words of reproach, in which the crowd of demons assailed Martin with scurrilous expressions. But knowing that all were false and groundless, he was not affected by the charges brought against him. Moreover, some of the brethren bore witness that they had heard a demon reproaching Martin in abusive terms, and asking why he had taken back, on their subsequent repentance, certain of the brethren who had, some time previously, lost their baptism by falling into various errors. The demon set forth the crimes of each of them; but they added that Martin, resisting the devil firmly, answered him, that by-past sins are cleansed away by the leading of a better life, and that through the mercy of God, those are to be absolved from their sins who have given up their evil ways. The devil saying in opposition to this that such guilty men as those referred to did not come within the pale of pardon, and that no mercy was extended by the Lord to those who had once fallen away, Martin is said to have cried out in words to the following effect: “If thou, thyself, wretched being, wouldst but desist from attacking mankind, and even, at this period, when the day of judgment is at hand, wouldst only repent of your deeds, I, with a true confidence in the Lord, would promise you the mercy of Christ.” O what a holy boldness with respect to the loving-kindness of the Lord, in which, although he could not assert authority, he nevertheless showed the feelings dwelling within him! And since our discourse has here sprung up concerning the devil and his devices, it does not seem away from the point, although the matter does not bear immediately upon Martin, to relate what took place; both because the virtues of Martin do, to some extent, appear in the transaction, and the incident, which was worthy of a miracle, will properly be put on record, with the view of furnishing a caution, should anything of a similar character subsequently occur.

Source :: Sulpitius Severus "On the Life of St. Martin" Chapter XXII

Dear Herbigny,

I have to admit that I am having trouble formulating an answer using the fourfold schema of "Gehenna, Hades, Paradise, Heaven." The schema seems basically true but the Fathers have used those words with varying meanings, so you and I may be speaking of different things.

Here are three quotes from widely differing centuries (5th, 17th and 20th) which show the same unanimous teaching on life after death...

The teaching of Saint Augustine of Hippo:


"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death
and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it
enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has
earned by the life which it led on earth."
Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).


The 1980 Resolution of the ROCA Synod of bishops on the toll house belief...

"Taking all of the foregoing into consideration, the Synod of Bishops resolve:

In the deliberations on life after death one must in general keep in mind
that it has not pleased the Lord to reveal to us very much aside from
the fact that the degree of a soul's blessedness depends on how much
a man's life on the earth has been truly Christian, and the degree of
a man's posthumous suffering depends upon the degree of sinfulness.
To add conjectures to the little that the Lord has been pleased to reveal
to us is not beneficial to our salvation..."

Interestingly enough, this is almost a word for word repetition of what Saint Augustine said 1500 years earlier!



The Synod of Constantinople of 1672:

"We believe that the souls of the departed are in either repose or torment
as each one has wrought, for immediately after the separation from the body
they are pronounced either in bliss or in suffering and sorrows, yet we
confess that neither their joy nor their condemnation are yet complete.
After the general resurrection, when the soul is reunited with the body,
each one will receive the full measure of joy or condemnation due to him
for the way in which he conducted himself, whether well or ill."

If you go back to the first page of this topic, to Message 339760, you will find my opinion. It might be a poor one but it's all I got!

The following is the best reference that we have to provide meditative material for this thread. It was revealed to the Apostle John, the Theologian and should be more authoritative than the writings of any post-apostolic writers:

AFTER THE MILLENNIUM:
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceived the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, God and Magog to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.(Rev 20: 7-10)

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it , and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15)

Liturgically, the Eastern Churches confirm this teaching on the Sunday of Meatfare, Commemoration the the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Judge. On this day we hear and teach according to the Kontakion:

When you will come to earth in glory, o God, and all creatures will tremble before you, the river of fire will flow before Your judgment-seat, and the books will be opened and all hidden things revealed, deliver me from the unquenchable fire and make me worthy to stand at Your right hand, o righteous Judge.

According to the above, there is no pardon after the Last Judgment. Left open is the "possibility" of mercy through the intercession the prayers of the living, the angels, and the saints. I think this is the best that we can hope for regarding "praying people out of hell."

Fr Deacon Paul

I've heard that the Latin doctrine of purgatory was dogmatically defined in "The Decree for The Greeks" at the Council of Florence, but I'm unable to find an English translation of this decree.

I'd like to know exactly what was "defined" as dogma.

Does the decree unambiguosly say that purgatory and hell are seperate places (or conditions)?

Does it say that a person's eternal destiny is set t the particular judgment?

Does it say that hell is "without end"?

If anyone has access to the words of the decree, could you please post them here?

The prayer in the Mass for the Dead "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" is known by Catholic theologians to have been a prayer for deliverance from Hell, but the same theologians point out that over the centuries such an understanding came to be seen as erroneous and the prayer was given a modified interpretation.

The Catholic Encyclopedia: "In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted."

The Eastern Orthodox maintain the older belief that deliverance from hell is possible. I would be interested to know how Eastern Catholics view this question?