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A very unworthy accusation from you, Stuart, that my Church is allowing the perverting of the faith!

Please find for me one official statement of the Patriarchate that is critical of the Putin government. Just one! Imprisonment and murder of opposition politicians and journalists? Threatening to use weapons of mass destruction offensively against peaceful neighbors? Atrocities in Chechnya? Attempted assassination of the leader of a neighboring country? Use of gas and oil shipments as a weapon, in the dead of winter?

The Patriarchate's silence is deafening. But understandable--one does not bite the hand that feeds one.

Also, a couple or three years ago, wasn't ROCOR as critical of the Patriarchate as I am (if not moreso)? Funny how reality changes along with allegiences. Where you sit determines where you stand.

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Nonsense! You should bone up on the attitude which both the present and previous Patriarch have taken to the Georgian question.

I think this statement from a New York Times [nytimes.com] article is succinct:

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Anatoly Krasikov, director of the Center for Religious and Social Studies of the Institute of Europe in Moscow, said the fighting had punctured two myths: “the myth of unity of Orthodox peoples” and “the myth of the supreme peacemaking ability of Orthodox civilization.”

“Of course it is not Orthodoxy that is to blame for this collapse,” he said, “but concrete people, functionaries of the church administrative structures of Russian and Georgian Orthodoxy.” For all practical purposes, they remained aloof, he said, and “did nothing to end a war that was unjust from all sides.”

But then, you earlier refused to concede Russia's act of ecclesiacide against the oldest of all Orthodox nations:

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The history of the two churches is long and intertwined. In 1801 Russia annexed Georgia, then seeking protection from Persia, and absorbed its church. It abolished the Georgian patriarchate, which was restored, at least nominally, after the Bolsheviks came to power.

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Those who would mythologize 'Mother Russia" will never be convinced, regardless of what may be apparent to others.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
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The assistance of the Russian government since the Church waas given its freedom in 1991 has been an immense help in the renaissance of Christianity in Russia.
The subordination of the Church to the Russian government has done inordinate harm to the independence and moral authority of the Church. Also, "He who pays the piper gets to call the tune".

This is completely unfounded. Please present evidence of the Russian Church being "subordinate" to the Russian government before making such accusations.


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Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted by StuartK
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Agree. But, they can affirm and even enable the practice and growth of the Faith in a society, or they can persecute it, like our current administration apparently has a mind to do.

Or they can subborn it and bend it to its own ends, perverting the faith in the process. This is the process in Russia, a return to the relationship of Church and State that existed from the time of Piotr Veliki to the Revolution.

A very unworthy accusation from you, Stuart, that my Church is allowing the perverting of the faith! If you could give specifics and not just a vague accusation, perhaps there could be a discussion

It gets better and better.

Stuart, why don't you pipe down with such absurd accusations.

The Russian Church upholds the faith. The only thing which is "perverted" is your constant attacks and hatred towards Russia and her people.


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Originally Posted by StuartK
[quote]A very unworthy accusation from you, Stuart, that my Church is allowing the perverting of the faith!

"Imprisonment and murder of opposition politicians and journalists?"

Fabrication

"Threatening to use weapons of mass destruction offensively against peaceful neighbors?"

Your imagination. Russia has simply stated that they would not tolerate a weapons proliferation on its border by the US or any other country. How would you feel if Russia began building a missile "defense" system on the Mexican border? I know I would oppose it.

"Atrocities in Chechnya?"

Are you even serious about this? The only atrocities in that region are committed by Muslim Extremists who engage in kidnapping, systematic destruction of Churches, murder of clergy and even a mass execution of SCHOOL CHILDREN.


"Attempted assassination of the leader of a neighboring country?"

More nonesence. There is no evidence of President Yushenko being poisoned by Russia.

"Use of gas and oil shipments as a weapon, in the dead of winter?"

Do you only oppose socialism in the US? Should Russia just give away free oil to her neighboring countries to the determent of her own people?

The only thing I do not agree with is Russia's constant flirting with Iran and China. Those two things are actually legitimate, however one could site the shameful relationship the US has with Saudia Arabia which is the largest exporter of radical Islam all over the world.

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It might uphold a variety of doctrines and dogmas, but ultimately the Church requires us to bear witness against injustice and to see Christ in the least of us--I also seem to remember something about not putting one's faith in princes, and the rulers of the gentiles lording it over others, but I may have been mistaken.

As to hating Russia, far from it. To see something one loves tortured and disfigured is painful, and so is seeing something someone loves fall short of the promise it should have had. Criticism is not hatred, though I understand that Russians live by a different standard.

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It is good to see that Pravda has no shortage of U.S. correspondents. Please tell such to the Marines, but not to me, who have seen such things.

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Where was the outcry when Chechen Moslems ethnically cleansed 300.000 Russian Christians and Armenians from the region between 1989 and 1994 ? Also check how many moderate Moslems sided with the "evil Russians" against the
mujihedeen types in the second Chechen War. As for Kosovo, the Serbian population is the one that's been in serious decline for the last 50 years, yet our government saw fit to side with groups linked to terrorists and gangsters. Countless burned out and vandalized churches were the end result.



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Originally Posted by StuartK
It is good to see that Pravda has no shortage of U.S. correspondents. Please tell such to the Marines, but not to me, who have seen such things.


Wrong.

I am simply consistently conservative as it applies to both Russian and US politics. In other words I want both a healthy, strong and prosperous Russia and a healthy and strong USA.

Judging by all of your post on this site with which I agree for the most part at least in terms of politics I would be willing to wager that had you been born in Russia you would yourself be a Putin supporter.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
It might uphold a variety of doctrines and dogmas, but ultimately the Church requires us to bear witness against injustice and to see Christ in the least of us--I also seem to remember something about not putting one's faith in princes, and the rulers of the gentiles lording it over others, but I may have been mistaken.

As to hating Russia, far from it. To see something one loves tortured and disfigured is painful, and so is seeing something someone loves fall short of the promise it should have had. Criticism is not hatred, though I understand that Russians live by a different standard.

Bear witness against injustice........would the US bombing of Serbia on Julian Calendar Easter fall under this?

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And what about those who mytholigize the 'Great USA' that will save the world?

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Pathetic, the lot of you.

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What about it, Lathe? Stuart never said anything about that.

Although I don't agree with his tone, I agree in general with what Stuart is saying.

Shockingly, I have never heard tale of the Russian Orthodox Church speaking to the political and religious repression spearheaded by the Russian government. The continued assassinations of journalists who dare to disagree with the party line, and bully manoeuvers by the state against non-Orthodox religious freedom is incompatible with a truly Christian state ethos.

Alexis

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Pathetic, the lot of you.

Shlomo Stuart,

While I agree with your points, the above is out of line on a Christian site. Not to say that I have not fallen into said pit, but we all need to remember that we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

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